Everybody have a PAST. The PAST that we want to keep buried and not resurface for others to know.
Tuesday, July 13, 2010
Sunday, March 14, 2010
Mar 10, 2010
budget debate
Grants for med students abroad
By Rachel Lin
RESTRUCTURED hospitals are looking into giving pre-employment grants to Singaporeans studying medicine overseas, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan announced yesterday.
The grant will cover part of the students' university fees. Recipients have to serve a bond in Singapore after they graduate.
An encounter with a young party activist in his Sembawang branch made him realise the usefulness of the idea, which had first been thrown up by Dr Lily Neo (Jalan Besar GRC), said Mr Khaw.
The activist was leaving to study medicine in New South Wales, Australia. 'Among the 60 international students in her batch, she noted that 40 were Singaporeans!' the minister exclaimed.
Mr Khaw blogged about this on Facebook. In his post, he said that the ministry's aggressive recruitment of foreign medical graduates had worked, but Singapore students should not be neglected.
'I will figure out a way to help them in a meaningful manner and secure their return to Singapore,' he wrote. 'I am sure it can be done, to get our kids back!'
Read the full story in Wednesday's edition of The Straits Times.
RESTRUCTURED hospitals are looking into giving pre-employment grants to Singaporeans studying medicine overseas, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan announced yesterday.
Full Story
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The bond tied to this grant is a definite turnoff.
Better for Singaporeans studying medicine overseas to get a job in a hospital, in the country from where they graduate.
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government is realising the country is losing talents to other countries
why the NUS medical faculty cannot be enlarged over the last 30 years ?
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sg wanted to make sure only top students are doctors. but then they realize, second rate students can still go australia to get medical degree if they are rich. so, might as well bond them too.
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Too late for anything, don't you think? Instead of trying to get back those students who are aboard studying Meds,
why don't government change the system here in Singapore for our future Med students?
Why even bother trying to get them back when so many of us here are wanting to be what they want to be?
Stop thinking of a short-term solution, please? This is very very irritating for us, citizens of Singapore, to be
reading this and understanding that the government is looking for a short-term solution.
i won't be cheated by your grants. It is another form of bond that I have to serve, so that I have to come back
and practice in a local hospital upon graduating overseas. How cunning can you be? Shame on all of you to create
this so-called grants. Revamp your school system instead of trying to persuade us to come back.
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The Minister is working towards helping Singaporean. It is better than nothing being done now. For the benefits of our country, we should focus and works towards with the end in mind.
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I have to agree with plumki. Given the amount of time and resources needed to increase our medical school intakes, i think this is a good temporary arrangement. One, it will ensure an increased supply of doctors which are
we need now in numbers. With a bond, this supply is perhaps less volatile to market forces internationally.Two, it stems the brain drain of talent from our country, and the government has indeed spent significant resources into educating them frm primary sch all the way up. And three, singaporean doctors (overseas trained nonetheless) I think are a better alternative to foreign doctors, not just because of their ability to relate better, but I think because they already have a strong support network at home.
I think the issue here is how do we give such grants so as to maintain the high standards of the medical profession here. There are so many medical schools around the world, even on the approved list here. Each with different syllabuses and costs, how do we decide
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Even if you give grants, there is nothing worth coming back to Singapore for.
Singapore is for foreigners and PRs and not for local doctors
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plumkiwi672 & imwellfed:
You guys don't see the picture. Do you know how our university take in med students? Their current system is, you'll go for interview to waste your time. After which, they found that none of your family members are doctors or in the medical line, they'll reject your applications. Only a certain percentage of med students that does not have a family with medical line history will be able to get in the med sch. That is how pathetic our system is right now and obviously, the whole plan back fired at the government because all they want are elites and sad to say, majority of our elites are in overseas practicing medicine.
I agree with you that with this "grants" in placed, we'll have an increased number of doctors to serve our Singaporeans' needs BUT my point is that they still have not tried to change the system. So, what is the point of implementing the grants?
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Isn't it better for Singaporeans studying medicine overseas, to remain in that country and practice their medicine there.
Serving a 5 year bond?? in a restructured hospital here can be hell.
Further with the flood of cheap foreign doctors here, there is little prospect for local doctors.
JustACitizen, if what you say is true, then of course the internal system needs to be changed. I mean I have heard rumors about how the med sch might favour students with doctor pedigrees, but I dont think its the case. Plus theres no evidence to suggest that is the case. If anything, they might know the medical profession better, and as a result naturally stand a better chance gaining admission. I do agree with you though, we need to improve the current system of selecting students, as well as expanding our medical student intake. They need to be more transparent with the selection process rather than just dishing out the criteria for a start.
Also, i agree with BPL, there must be career prospects, good ones for them, or else they have less reason to return. Are overseas graduates now discriminated against local graduates presently? in terms of career opportunities?
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After doctor pedigrees, alumni ties matter next.
Raffles and ACS are favoured.
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On a side note, it does appear that they have realised rather belatedly that we now have an acute shortage of local doctors. I noticed that they were taking in a lot of Malaysians at the expense of Singaporeans. This forced many Singaporeans to study in overseas medical schools and to remain overseas after they graduated.
This has adverse implications with regards to the 'defence' of this island. It has probably resulted in the SAF having a shortage of doctors.
What if we were in a conflict with an 'aggressor'? Would we have sufficient doctors to treat the casualties, given that most of the foreign doctors will run away at the slightest sign of trouble?
This is a problem that they have brought upon themselves because of their addiction to cheap foreign doctors.
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Even local nurses are getting out as quickly as they can.
How do you fight a war without doctors and nurses.
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Two out of three doctors in Singapore are “foreign-trained”
January 12, 2010 by admin
http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/01...reign-trained/
It doesn't make sense for Singapore to be entirely dependent on foreign doctors.
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Almost every single one of the students admitted to the one medical school and two local law schools here are rejects of overseas scholarships. Ask anyone from RJ or Hwa Chong in the know and who isn't deluded and they will tell you that, especially ask those in the top 2 classes. The rejected numbers make up about the same people who get rejected by PSC. What's worse is most of the rejected people who end up/get a place in the local med and law schools, are rejected by even the worst and lower rung of the scholarships (the stat boards). Anything who doesn't live a hole must know that scholarships come in different grades and ranks.
It is rather disturbing that the people in the supposedly most selective courses in the "universities" are rejects of top universities. This is why I have bought insurance funds to ensure my kids go to the US.
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MOH segregates all doctors (regardless of citizenship) according to where they are trained, traditional and non traditional sources.
Even if the doctor is Filipino or Malaysian or Indian, if trained in the UK/Australia/Ireland/US/Canada, they are considered traditional sources. There are many Singaporeans who choose to go to UK and Ireland, where their medical schools are way superior. In fact, less than 10 students in the local medical school will be able to make it to Cambridge.
Non traditional sources are doctors who received training in a third world country - India, Bangladesh, Egypt, etc
Anyone who patronizes Temasek Review is an illiterate peasant who can't tell his balls apart from his face. No need to give any weight to their opinion or hear them whine or orgasm, which is worth nothing.
fatsofatso
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fatsofatso
March 11, 2010 Thursday, 06:06 PM
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MOH eagerly courts all doctors, as long as they are trained in traditional source. This is because the local trained ones have to serve 5 yrs, no need to court.
The courting is done to both Singaporean doctors trained in UK/Ireland/Australia (to encourage them to come home and not stay overseas) as well as foreign doctors trained in these traditional sources. go to salary.sg and the MOH admin is even there to answer the queries of these foreign doctors. Doctors trained in first world countries are most certainly MOH's first choice.
A lot of doctors trained in first world countries, including Singaporean doctors, consider and do work overseas in first world countries like Australia/UK instead of coming back. Australia and US recognise medical degrees from the UK and Ireland and waives the need to take further entrance exams if the doctor is from an approved UK/Irish university.
fatsofatso
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fatsofatso
March 11, 2010 Thursday, 06:07 PM
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We need to encourage more doctors, whether Singaporean or foreign, who had trained in first world countries to come to Singapore. This will control our healthcare costs and also hopefully these doctors (both Singaporean or foreigner) will stay in Singapore and not make elsewhere their homes.
fatsofatso
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calvinacheng
March 11, 2010 Thursday, 08:16 PM
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People who study overseas generally don't wanna return. Period.
Once you have tasted the greener pastures and had your mind opened, the process is irreversible.
Woe be to the froggies in the well here in NUS. Little red dot,..little indeed
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from temasek review.. where else?
10 most unforgettable quotes from PAP MPs during the recent parliamentary “debate”
but you won't EVER read this in the ST!!!
The PAP has always boasted that their MPs are the best talents in Singapore. The parliamentary sessions last week had been an eye-opener to see these MPs flaunt their “talents”.
Based on their speeches, it is quite obvious that many of them, with the exception of Inderjit Singh are living high up in their own ivory towers and completely out of touch with the ground.
This is not surprising given the fact that some had found their ways into Parliament without contesting an election. Tanjong Pagar MP Koo Tsai Kee, for example, had been a MP since 1991. He had never fought in an election before.
From the most callous to the most juvenile remarks, we compiled them into a list here for our readers to enjoy, recap and to remember when the next election comes:
10. Dr Vivian Balakrishnan (Holland-Bukit Timah GRC) on why he has ordered the removal of homeless Singaporeans camping out in the public (forcefully):
“I have taken such an active stand to make sure we do not have people camping out on beaches, or parks or void decks, even though these may be safe and indeed, sometimes even pleasant areas for adults. These are not good and safe areas for children. And so I have insisted that (to) anyone with children. The children must be put in a proper home; they must continue to go to school. They must continue to get access to good food, good hygiene”
9. Jessica Tan (East Coast GRC) expressing her worries that the hike in foreign worker levy will turn away foreigners:
“The hike in the foreign worker levy which if not calibrate, will send the wrong signal to companies looking to invest in Singapore or to foreign talents that the country is not open.”
8. Josephine Teo (Bishan-Toa Payoh GRC) rejecting WP MP Low Thia Kiang’s suggestion to scrap the foreign worker levy:
“”I can speak on behalf of the union leaders that we totally and firmly reject Mr Low’s disastrous suggestion that we remove the foreign worker levy as it will harm our workers’ interest.”
7. Seah Kian Peng (Marine Parade GRC) asking the PAP to spend more taxpayers’ monies to help the new citizens feel welcomed in Singapore:
“We have not done any large scale survey, we do not know their problems but we have already gone ahead and decided that the funds will go towards organizing activities…..What we ought to do is first – find out what new Singaporeans need, and then target funding at helping them meet these needs.”
6. Teo Chee Hean (Pasir Ris-Punggol GRC) on the ruling party’s renewed focus on productivity which has declined consecutively for the last three years and being caught napping during a speech made by DPM Wong Kan Seng:
““We are now a more developed economy – further up the productivity curve. We have made progress, but those ahead of us have also progressed and moved up as well. And those behind us have made rapid advances and are catching up with us.”
5. Koo Tsai Kee (Tanjong Pagar GRC) trying to lick the boots of his superior, Teo Chee Hean:
“The SAF, despite its manpower constraints, has been able to face up to a widening range of security threats in recent years under Defence Minister Teo….And I am not saying this because he’s my boss.”
4. Baey Yam Keng (Tanjong Pagar GRC) who told the media a few days ago that he planned to raise issues concerning his residents in Parliament
“Food is an important part of our rich cultural heritage – one which has been and will always been an attraction to locals and foreigners alike……The Food Museum could delve into aspects of local cuisine, such as ‘why Hong Kong noodles did not originate from Hong Kong’, and ‘why our Hainanese chicken rice is different from that found in Hainan Island’” .
3. Mah Bow Tan (Tampines GRC) who appeared lost after being grilled by fellow PAP MP Inderjit Singh:
“PRs make up only one in five resale flat buyers and have minimal impact on resale prices.”
2. Ong Ah Heng (Yishun Central) in an impassioned speech to defend foreign workers:
“I know of one family who complain the cleaners in their precinct are lazy and too old. They don’t want local workers who are old, they want young foreign workers. To satisfy the demand, I changed the local workers to foreign workers. Foreign workers are not a burden to us. Their presence here is not negative. Without foreign workers, things will be worse.”
And the quote of the year so far goes to Lim Swee Say for revealing the truth about the PAP MPs – that they are deaf to all feedback and criticisms.
1. Lim Swee Say (Holland-Bukit Timah GRC) to Low Thia Kiang for bruising his ego:
“We never give up……. We are deaf to all these criticisms…..So instead of telling us that low-wage workers are having problems, why not be part of the solution?”
We can’t really blame them for being deaf when they have been taught all along to sing in tune with their piper master PAP’s octogenarian leader Lee Kuan Yew:
“To be the prime minister, you don’t have to know every instrument, but you got to recognise, ah, he’s a good violinist, he’ll be the first violinist, he’ll be the double bass. He will play the viola, he will have the trumpet, he will do the drums. Then you coordinate them and then you have great music. And if you already have a great orchestra, you can put a dummy there and you still got great music.”
[Source: Channel News Asia, 5 March 2008]
Singaporeans, do you still see any value in voting for the PAP in the next election? This are the kind of MPs you will get raising your concerns in Parliament! And don’t forget you are paying them $13,000 monthly to sprout such highfalutin stuff!
Remember the PAP election slogan of 2006 – “Staying together, Moving ahead”? The PAP MPs are indeed staying together and moving ahead without us! While the pay of the PAP ministers, ministers of states and parliamentary secretaries are expected to increase by 8.8 percent this year, will you even dream of a pay rise?
When your PAP MP put up a “wayang” house visit to your home in the next few months before the election and pretend to “listen” to you, don’t forget this gentle reminder from Lim Swee Say:
“We are DEAF to all criticisms!”
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foreign doctor can doctor their certificate , so no need good pay
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Even with the Singaporean doctors returning from overseas plus Singapore trained local doctors here, its not enough because of the population explosion, that's why need to attract doctors from non traditional sources. The reason nobody here knows this, is because most of the people here are retards.
Anyway nobody in the local med school will be able to get into top medical schools like Cambridge. Rich kids with money and can make it to Cambridge like Ivor Lim, please don't stay here and waste your life.
shamelesspeasant
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shamelesspeasant
March 11, 2010 Thursday, 09:00 PM
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MOH please recruit ONLY foreign doctors trained in 1st world countries, which is what you call the "traditional sources". A recent ST story already highlighted that mistakes made by doctors trained in non traditional sources eg China, Bangladesh, India, etc are significantly higher. This is the people's health and safety at stake leh.
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http://www.straitstimes.com/Singapor...ry_493615.html
A STUDY by National University Hospital (NUH) doctors has found that patients treated by medical officers at its emergency department were twice as likely than those seen by specialists to make unscheduled return visits for more treatment.
But the percentage of these medical officers' patients returning for additional or corrective treatment for the same complaint is small - 489 out of 22,529 patients, or a return rate of 2.17 per cent.
In contrast, the return rate among patients seen by its specialists was less than 1 per cent.
Corresponding figures for the other hospitals were unavailable.
The return rate for the entire emergency department is also small - just 842 patients, or 2.2 per cent, of the 38,414 patients handled.
The hospital has nonetheless acted to bring down the figure.
Dr Malcolm Mahadevan, a senior consultant in NUH's emergency department, said the difference in return rates may be because those seen by specialists tend to be more serious cases and likely to already be in-patients.
The study he did in 2005 with a colleague, Dr W.S. Kuan, was published recently in the Singapore Medical Journal.
It also unearthed other patterns among NUH's return patients: One was that patients who sought emergency treatment in the wee hours of the morning were the most likely to return for more treatment - a return rate of 3.4 per cent.
The authors of the study concluded that the higher return rate between midnight and 8am was the result of fewer doctors being on duty, fatigue among those who were working, and less supervision by senior doctors.
Another trend was that the return rate among patients of doctors from 'non-traditional sources', such as the Philippines or India, was higher than that of the medical officers, at 2.54 per cent.
Doctors trained in the United States, Europe or Australia are deemed as having been drawn from 'traditional' sources.
Dr Mahadevan said NUH's overall return rate of 2.2 per cent was comparable to published rates in hospitals elsewhere.
The overall return rate at Singapore General Hospital (SGH) is between 1 per cent and 1.5 per cent; the rate has been less than 2 per cent at KK Women's and Children's Hospital (KKH) since 2007.
Changi General Hospital (CGH) does not differentiate between scheduled and unscheduled returns.
Although none of NUH's return patients in the study died, several had serious illnesses and 307 had to be admitted. Dr Mahadevan said: 'It is not possible to totally eliminate re-attendances because of the progression of certain diseases.'
To lower its return rate, NUH has doubled the number of beds in its emergency department, so patients - those with abdominal pains, which are harder to diagnose, for example - can be observed for a longer period to ensure they do not need hospitalisation.
It has also begun giving patients intravenous fluids to forestall dehydration, which has been identified as one reason for unscheduled return visits following discharge.
The hospital has since also increased the number of doctors on duty on the midnight shift.
Other hospitals have also done this to lower their return rates.
Dr Fatimah Lateef, an emergency medicine specialist at SGH, said the dip in SGH's rate over the years was partly due to the hospital deploying senior doctors to vet cases.
SGH's emergency medicine head, Dr Mark Leong, added that a senior doctor is on duty 24 hours a day all year round. This has been so for the last 10 years.
KKH also has a senior doctor on duty at all times, while CGH has between two and four on duty round-the-clock.
CGH's emergency department head, Dr Mohan Tiru, said that since last October, patients have been given a number to call for advice if they notice a change in their condition while they are at home, so they will know what to do to prevent their condition from getting worse.
Dr Mahadevan's study recommended that proper discharge advice be given to patients at NUH as well.
He said: 'Despite a year-on-year increase in our A&E patient volume, the unscheduled return rate has remained stable over the last five years. I think this showed that our initiatives have worked.'
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PrivateLimited,
"It is rather disturbing that the people in the supposedly most selective courses in the "universities" are rejects of top universities. This is why I have bought insurance funds to ensure my kids go to the US."
- theres a difference between getting rejected by THE AWARDING COMMITTEE and getting rejected by THE UNIVERSITY itself. want to invest in yourself while your're at it?
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Rejected by BOTH. They are also rejected by Oxbridge and HYPSM. Just goes to show what a frog in a well you are!!! GO ASK YOUR FARMER FRIENDS!
Only 3 Singaporeans get into Harvard undergrad every yr. My ex classmate with 4As and 1 S merit did not even get a rejection from Oxford. He was rejected without the dignity of a reply.
Stupid NUS frog in the well. This is what happens when people stay behind here.
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And fewer than 5 to 7 Singaporeans make it to MIT undergrad.
Whats the stats for law school? More than 500! Med and law in total? More than 750. You're making a huge fool of yourself.
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PrivateLimited, although i would agree with you wholeheartedly that oxbridge and HYPSM are more selective in their admissions, I think it would be unfair to say that our med and law schools are composed of rejected applicants. Perhaps the average quality of these students may not be as good, but I am sure some are definitely comparable.
It is true though that there are many students in these schools that might not have chosen their current paths, if given a better scholarship or university place overseas. The onus is thus on the interview panels to weed out those who lack genuine interest in these courses.
A grant to lure them home?
Pre-employment grant could help with high costs of studying abroad, says Khaw
by Alicia Wong
05:55 AM Mar 10, 2010
SINGAPORE - When a medical student told him that at her university in Australia, 40 of the 60 international students in her batch were Singaporeans, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan had vowed on Facebook to "find a way to 'get our kids back' to Singapore".
"And I will," he reaffirmed yesterday, sharing with Parliament how he might go about doing so.........
http://www.todayonline.com/Singapore...lure-them-home
Isn't it too little too late.
Singaporeans studying medicine overseas are not going to come back.
NUS medical school should offer more places to Singaporeans instead of training foreigners.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatsofatso
Anyone who patronizes Temasek Review is an illiterate peasant who can't tell his balls apart from his face. No need to give any weight to their opinion or hear them whine or orgasm, which is worth nothing.
Don't get your panties tied up in a knot. Temasek Review is meant for Singaporeans who are fed up with being forced fed BS and lies.
Certainly not for bootlickers who spend 24/7 kissing their master's s.
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Might be useful for ppl who are yet to embark.
For those already there - very few would bite - did you actually think that ppl went overseas HOPING that this scheme will be announced?
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NUS medical school should declare the number of foreigners it accepts in each cohort.
Singapore's addiction to foreigners should not result in the SAF having insufficient doctors
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just because you have friends who failed in BOTH, doesn't mean everyone else does.
not everyone hankers over a scholarship deal, especially when mummy and daddy can well afford it.
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so whats this about buying that "insurance fund"?..... if your kids are stupid, they are stupid.
you can only TRY and buy them a decent education and hope for the best.
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Wow, this forum is defintely infested with as many atheletic canines for certain other tribes as 'bootlickers, the way, they infest every thread with irrelevant comments that clearly point to their being of this exotic species belonging to the other tribes!!!
budget debate
Grants for med students abroad
By Rachel Lin
RESTRUCTURED hospitals are looking into giving pre-employment grants to Singaporeans studying medicine overseas, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan announced yesterday.
The grant will cover part of the students' university fees. Recipients have to serve a bond in Singapore after they graduate.
An encounter with a young party activist in his Sembawang branch made him realise the usefulness of the idea, which had first been thrown up by Dr Lily Neo (Jalan Besar GRC), said Mr Khaw.
The activist was leaving to study medicine in New South Wales, Australia. 'Among the 60 international students in her batch, she noted that 40 were Singaporeans!' the minister exclaimed.
Mr Khaw blogged about this on Facebook. In his post, he said that the ministry's aggressive recruitment of foreign medical graduates had worked, but Singapore students should not be neglected.
'I will figure out a way to help them in a meaningful manner and secure their return to Singapore,' he wrote. 'I am sure it can be done, to get our kids back!'
Read the full story in Wednesday's edition of The Straits Times.
RESTRUCTURED hospitals are looking into giving pre-employment grants to Singaporeans studying medicine overseas, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan announced yesterday.
Full Story
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The bond tied to this grant is a definite turnoff.
Better for Singaporeans studying medicine overseas to get a job in a hospital, in the country from where they graduate.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
government is realising the country is losing talents to other countries
why the NUS medical faculty cannot be enlarged over the last 30 years ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sg wanted to make sure only top students are doctors. but then they realize, second rate students can still go australia to get medical degree if they are rich. so, might as well bond them too.
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Too late for anything, don't you think? Instead of trying to get back those students who are aboard studying Meds,
why don't government change the system here in Singapore for our future Med students?
Why even bother trying to get them back when so many of us here are wanting to be what they want to be?
Stop thinking of a short-term solution, please? This is very very irritating for us, citizens of Singapore, to be
reading this and understanding that the government is looking for a short-term solution.
i won't be cheated by your grants. It is another form of bond that I have to serve, so that I have to come back
and practice in a local hospital upon graduating overseas. How cunning can you be? Shame on all of you to create
this so-called grants. Revamp your school system instead of trying to persuade us to come back.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Minister is working towards helping Singaporean. It is better than nothing being done now. For the benefits of our country, we should focus and works towards with the end in mind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with plumki. Given the amount of time and resources needed to increase our medical school intakes, i think this is a good temporary arrangement. One, it will ensure an increased supply of doctors which are
we need now in numbers. With a bond, this supply is perhaps less volatile to market forces internationally.Two, it stems the brain drain of talent from our country, and the government has indeed spent significant resources into educating them frm primary sch all the way up. And three, singaporean doctors (overseas trained nonetheless) I think are a better alternative to foreign doctors, not just because of their ability to relate better, but I think because they already have a strong support network at home.
I think the issue here is how do we give such grants so as to maintain the high standards of the medical profession here. There are so many medical schools around the world, even on the approved list here. Each with different syllabuses and costs, how do we decide
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Even if you give grants, there is nothing worth coming back to Singapore for.
Singapore is for foreigners and PRs and not for local doctors
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plumkiwi672 & imwellfed:
You guys don't see the picture. Do you know how our university take in med students? Their current system is, you'll go for interview to waste your time. After which, they found that none of your family members are doctors or in the medical line, they'll reject your applications. Only a certain percentage of med students that does not have a family with medical line history will be able to get in the med sch. That is how pathetic our system is right now and obviously, the whole plan back fired at the government because all they want are elites and sad to say, majority of our elites are in overseas practicing medicine.
I agree with you that with this "grants" in placed, we'll have an increased number of doctors to serve our Singaporeans' needs BUT my point is that they still have not tried to change the system. So, what is the point of implementing the grants?
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Isn't it better for Singaporeans studying medicine overseas, to remain in that country and practice their medicine there.
Serving a 5 year bond?? in a restructured hospital here can be hell.
Further with the flood of cheap foreign doctors here, there is little prospect for local doctors.
JustACitizen, if what you say is true, then of course the internal system needs to be changed. I mean I have heard rumors about how the med sch might favour students with doctor pedigrees, but I dont think its the case. Plus theres no evidence to suggest that is the case. If anything, they might know the medical profession better, and as a result naturally stand a better chance gaining admission. I do agree with you though, we need to improve the current system of selecting students, as well as expanding our medical student intake. They need to be more transparent with the selection process rather than just dishing out the criteria for a start.
Also, i agree with BPL, there must be career prospects, good ones for them, or else they have less reason to return. Are overseas graduates now discriminated against local graduates presently? in terms of career opportunities?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After doctor pedigrees, alumni ties matter next.
Raffles and ACS are favoured.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, it does appear that they have realised rather belatedly that we now have an acute shortage of local doctors. I noticed that they were taking in a lot of Malaysians at the expense of Singaporeans. This forced many Singaporeans to study in overseas medical schools and to remain overseas after they graduated.
This has adverse implications with regards to the 'defence' of this island. It has probably resulted in the SAF having a shortage of doctors.
What if we were in a conflict with an 'aggressor'? Would we have sufficient doctors to treat the casualties, given that most of the foreign doctors will run away at the slightest sign of trouble?
This is a problem that they have brought upon themselves because of their addiction to cheap foreign doctors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even local nurses are getting out as quickly as they can.
How do you fight a war without doctors and nurses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two out of three doctors in Singapore are “foreign-trained”
January 12, 2010 by admin
http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/01...reign-trained/
It doesn't make sense for Singapore to be entirely dependent on foreign doctors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Almost every single one of the students admitted to the one medical school and two local law schools here are rejects of overseas scholarships. Ask anyone from RJ or Hwa Chong in the know and who isn't deluded and they will tell you that, especially ask those in the top 2 classes. The rejected numbers make up about the same people who get rejected by PSC. What's worse is most of the rejected people who end up/get a place in the local med and law schools, are rejected by even the worst and lower rung of the scholarships (the stat boards). Anything who doesn't live a hole must know that scholarships come in different grades and ranks.
It is rather disturbing that the people in the supposedly most selective courses in the "universities" are rejects of top universities. This is why I have bought insurance funds to ensure my kids go to the US.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOH segregates all doctors (regardless of citizenship) according to where they are trained, traditional and non traditional sources.
Even if the doctor is Filipino or Malaysian or Indian, if trained in the UK/Australia/Ireland/US/Canada, they are considered traditional sources. There are many Singaporeans who choose to go to UK and Ireland, where their medical schools are way superior. In fact, less than 10 students in the local medical school will be able to make it to Cambridge.
Non traditional sources are doctors who received training in a third world country - India, Bangladesh, Egypt, etc
Anyone who patronizes Temasek Review is an illiterate peasant who can't tell his balls apart from his face. No need to give any weight to their opinion or hear them whine or orgasm, which is worth nothing.
fatsofatso
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fatsofatso
March 11, 2010 Thursday, 06:06 PM
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MOH eagerly courts all doctors, as long as they are trained in traditional source. This is because the local trained ones have to serve 5 yrs, no need to court.
The courting is done to both Singaporean doctors trained in UK/Ireland/Australia (to encourage them to come home and not stay overseas) as well as foreign doctors trained in these traditional sources. go to salary.sg and the MOH admin is even there to answer the queries of these foreign doctors. Doctors trained in first world countries are most certainly MOH's first choice.
A lot of doctors trained in first world countries, including Singaporean doctors, consider and do work overseas in first world countries like Australia/UK instead of coming back. Australia and US recognise medical degrees from the UK and Ireland and waives the need to take further entrance exams if the doctor is from an approved UK/Irish university.
fatsofatso
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fatsofatso
March 11, 2010 Thursday, 06:07 PM
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We need to encourage more doctors, whether Singaporean or foreign, who had trained in first world countries to come to Singapore. This will control our healthcare costs and also hopefully these doctors (both Singaporean or foreigner) will stay in Singapore and not make elsewhere their homes.
fatsofatso
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calvinacheng
March 11, 2010 Thursday, 08:16 PM
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People who study overseas generally don't wanna return. Period.
Once you have tasted the greener pastures and had your mind opened, the process is irreversible.
Woe be to the froggies in the well here in NUS. Little red dot,..little indeed
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from temasek review.. where else?
10 most unforgettable quotes from PAP MPs during the recent parliamentary “debate”
but you won't EVER read this in the ST!!!
The PAP has always boasted that their MPs are the best talents in Singapore. The parliamentary sessions last week had been an eye-opener to see these MPs flaunt their “talents”.
Based on their speeches, it is quite obvious that many of them, with the exception of Inderjit Singh are living high up in their own ivory towers and completely out of touch with the ground.
This is not surprising given the fact that some had found their ways into Parliament without contesting an election. Tanjong Pagar MP Koo Tsai Kee, for example, had been a MP since 1991. He had never fought in an election before.
From the most callous to the most juvenile remarks, we compiled them into a list here for our readers to enjoy, recap and to remember when the next election comes:
10. Dr Vivian Balakrishnan (Holland-Bukit Timah GRC) on why he has ordered the removal of homeless Singaporeans camping out in the public (forcefully):
“I have taken such an active stand to make sure we do not have people camping out on beaches, or parks or void decks, even though these may be safe and indeed, sometimes even pleasant areas for adults. These are not good and safe areas for children. And so I have insisted that (to) anyone with children. The children must be put in a proper home; they must continue to go to school. They must continue to get access to good food, good hygiene”
9. Jessica Tan (East Coast GRC) expressing her worries that the hike in foreign worker levy will turn away foreigners:
“The hike in the foreign worker levy which if not calibrate, will send the wrong signal to companies looking to invest in Singapore or to foreign talents that the country is not open.”
8. Josephine Teo (Bishan-Toa Payoh GRC) rejecting WP MP Low Thia Kiang’s suggestion to scrap the foreign worker levy:
“”I can speak on behalf of the union leaders that we totally and firmly reject Mr Low’s disastrous suggestion that we remove the foreign worker levy as it will harm our workers’ interest.”
7. Seah Kian Peng (Marine Parade GRC) asking the PAP to spend more taxpayers’ monies to help the new citizens feel welcomed in Singapore:
“We have not done any large scale survey, we do not know their problems but we have already gone ahead and decided that the funds will go towards organizing activities…..What we ought to do is first – find out what new Singaporeans need, and then target funding at helping them meet these needs.”
6. Teo Chee Hean (Pasir Ris-Punggol GRC) on the ruling party’s renewed focus on productivity which has declined consecutively for the last three years and being caught napping during a speech made by DPM Wong Kan Seng:
““We are now a more developed economy – further up the productivity curve. We have made progress, but those ahead of us have also progressed and moved up as well. And those behind us have made rapid advances and are catching up with us.”
5. Koo Tsai Kee (Tanjong Pagar GRC) trying to lick the boots of his superior, Teo Chee Hean:
“The SAF, despite its manpower constraints, has been able to face up to a widening range of security threats in recent years under Defence Minister Teo….And I am not saying this because he’s my boss.”
4. Baey Yam Keng (Tanjong Pagar GRC) who told the media a few days ago that he planned to raise issues concerning his residents in Parliament
“Food is an important part of our rich cultural heritage – one which has been and will always been an attraction to locals and foreigners alike……The Food Museum could delve into aspects of local cuisine, such as ‘why Hong Kong noodles did not originate from Hong Kong’, and ‘why our Hainanese chicken rice is different from that found in Hainan Island’” .
3. Mah Bow Tan (Tampines GRC) who appeared lost after being grilled by fellow PAP MP Inderjit Singh:
“PRs make up only one in five resale flat buyers and have minimal impact on resale prices.”
2. Ong Ah Heng (Yishun Central) in an impassioned speech to defend foreign workers:
“I know of one family who complain the cleaners in their precinct are lazy and too old. They don’t want local workers who are old, they want young foreign workers. To satisfy the demand, I changed the local workers to foreign workers. Foreign workers are not a burden to us. Their presence here is not negative. Without foreign workers, things will be worse.”
And the quote of the year so far goes to Lim Swee Say for revealing the truth about the PAP MPs – that they are deaf to all feedback and criticisms.
1. Lim Swee Say (Holland-Bukit Timah GRC) to Low Thia Kiang for bruising his ego:
“We never give up……. We are deaf to all these criticisms…..So instead of telling us that low-wage workers are having problems, why not be part of the solution?”
We can’t really blame them for being deaf when they have been taught all along to sing in tune with their piper master PAP’s octogenarian leader Lee Kuan Yew:
“To be the prime minister, you don’t have to know every instrument, but you got to recognise, ah, he’s a good violinist, he’ll be the first violinist, he’ll be the double bass. He will play the viola, he will have the trumpet, he will do the drums. Then you coordinate them and then you have great music. And if you already have a great orchestra, you can put a dummy there and you still got great music.”
[Source: Channel News Asia, 5 March 2008]
Singaporeans, do you still see any value in voting for the PAP in the next election? This are the kind of MPs you will get raising your concerns in Parliament! And don’t forget you are paying them $13,000 monthly to sprout such highfalutin stuff!
Remember the PAP election slogan of 2006 – “Staying together, Moving ahead”? The PAP MPs are indeed staying together and moving ahead without us! While the pay of the PAP ministers, ministers of states and parliamentary secretaries are expected to increase by 8.8 percent this year, will you even dream of a pay rise?
When your PAP MP put up a “wayang” house visit to your home in the next few months before the election and pretend to “listen” to you, don’t forget this gentle reminder from Lim Swee Say:
“We are DEAF to all criticisms!”
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foreign doctor can doctor their certificate , so no need good pay
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Even with the Singaporean doctors returning from overseas plus Singapore trained local doctors here, its not enough because of the population explosion, that's why need to attract doctors from non traditional sources. The reason nobody here knows this, is because most of the people here are retards.
Anyway nobody in the local med school will be able to get into top medical schools like Cambridge. Rich kids with money and can make it to Cambridge like Ivor Lim, please don't stay here and waste your life.
shamelesspeasant
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shamelesspeasant
March 11, 2010 Thursday, 09:00 PM
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MOH please recruit ONLY foreign doctors trained in 1st world countries, which is what you call the "traditional sources". A recent ST story already highlighted that mistakes made by doctors trained in non traditional sources eg China, Bangladesh, India, etc are significantly higher. This is the people's health and safety at stake leh.
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http://www.straitstimes.com/Singapor...ry_493615.html
A STUDY by National University Hospital (NUH) doctors has found that patients treated by medical officers at its emergency department were twice as likely than those seen by specialists to make unscheduled return visits for more treatment.
But the percentage of these medical officers' patients returning for additional or corrective treatment for the same complaint is small - 489 out of 22,529 patients, or a return rate of 2.17 per cent.
In contrast, the return rate among patients seen by its specialists was less than 1 per cent.
Corresponding figures for the other hospitals were unavailable.
The return rate for the entire emergency department is also small - just 842 patients, or 2.2 per cent, of the 38,414 patients handled.
The hospital has nonetheless acted to bring down the figure.
Dr Malcolm Mahadevan, a senior consultant in NUH's emergency department, said the difference in return rates may be because those seen by specialists tend to be more serious cases and likely to already be in-patients.
The study he did in 2005 with a colleague, Dr W.S. Kuan, was published recently in the Singapore Medical Journal.
It also unearthed other patterns among NUH's return patients: One was that patients who sought emergency treatment in the wee hours of the morning were the most likely to return for more treatment - a return rate of 3.4 per cent.
The authors of the study concluded that the higher return rate between midnight and 8am was the result of fewer doctors being on duty, fatigue among those who were working, and less supervision by senior doctors.
Another trend was that the return rate among patients of doctors from 'non-traditional sources', such as the Philippines or India, was higher than that of the medical officers, at 2.54 per cent.
Doctors trained in the United States, Europe or Australia are deemed as having been drawn from 'traditional' sources.
Dr Mahadevan said NUH's overall return rate of 2.2 per cent was comparable to published rates in hospitals elsewhere.
The overall return rate at Singapore General Hospital (SGH) is between 1 per cent and 1.5 per cent; the rate has been less than 2 per cent at KK Women's and Children's Hospital (KKH) since 2007.
Changi General Hospital (CGH) does not differentiate between scheduled and unscheduled returns.
Although none of NUH's return patients in the study died, several had serious illnesses and 307 had to be admitted. Dr Mahadevan said: 'It is not possible to totally eliminate re-attendances because of the progression of certain diseases.'
To lower its return rate, NUH has doubled the number of beds in its emergency department, so patients - those with abdominal pains, which are harder to diagnose, for example - can be observed for a longer period to ensure they do not need hospitalisation.
It has also begun giving patients intravenous fluids to forestall dehydration, which has been identified as one reason for unscheduled return visits following discharge.
The hospital has since also increased the number of doctors on duty on the midnight shift.
Other hospitals have also done this to lower their return rates.
Dr Fatimah Lateef, an emergency medicine specialist at SGH, said the dip in SGH's rate over the years was partly due to the hospital deploying senior doctors to vet cases.
SGH's emergency medicine head, Dr Mark Leong, added that a senior doctor is on duty 24 hours a day all year round. This has been so for the last 10 years.
KKH also has a senior doctor on duty at all times, while CGH has between two and four on duty round-the-clock.
CGH's emergency department head, Dr Mohan Tiru, said that since last October, patients have been given a number to call for advice if they notice a change in their condition while they are at home, so they will know what to do to prevent their condition from getting worse.
Dr Mahadevan's study recommended that proper discharge advice be given to patients at NUH as well.
He said: 'Despite a year-on-year increase in our A&E patient volume, the unscheduled return rate has remained stable over the last five years. I think this showed that our initiatives have worked.'
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PrivateLimited,
"It is rather disturbing that the people in the supposedly most selective courses in the "universities" are rejects of top universities. This is why I have bought insurance funds to ensure my kids go to the US."
- theres a difference between getting rejected by THE AWARDING COMMITTEE and getting rejected by THE UNIVERSITY itself. want to invest in yourself while your're at it?
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Rejected by BOTH. They are also rejected by Oxbridge and HYPSM. Just goes to show what a frog in a well you are!!! GO ASK YOUR FARMER FRIENDS!
Only 3 Singaporeans get into Harvard undergrad every yr. My ex classmate with 4As and 1 S merit did not even get a rejection from Oxford. He was rejected without the dignity of a reply.
Stupid NUS frog in the well. This is what happens when people stay behind here.
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And fewer than 5 to 7 Singaporeans make it to MIT undergrad.
Whats the stats for law school? More than 500! Med and law in total? More than 750. You're making a huge fool of yourself.
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PrivateLimited, although i would agree with you wholeheartedly that oxbridge and HYPSM are more selective in their admissions, I think it would be unfair to say that our med and law schools are composed of rejected applicants. Perhaps the average quality of these students may not be as good, but I am sure some are definitely comparable.
It is true though that there are many students in these schools that might not have chosen their current paths, if given a better scholarship or university place overseas. The onus is thus on the interview panels to weed out those who lack genuine interest in these courses.
A grant to lure them home?
Pre-employment grant could help with high costs of studying abroad, says Khaw
by Alicia Wong
05:55 AM Mar 10, 2010
SINGAPORE - When a medical student told him that at her university in Australia, 40 of the 60 international students in her batch were Singaporeans, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan had vowed on Facebook to "find a way to 'get our kids back' to Singapore".
"And I will," he reaffirmed yesterday, sharing with Parliament how he might go about doing so.........
http://www.todayonline.com/Singapore...lure-them-home
Isn't it too little too late.
Singaporeans studying medicine overseas are not going to come back.
NUS medical school should offer more places to Singaporeans instead of training foreigners.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatsofatso
Anyone who patronizes Temasek Review is an illiterate peasant who can't tell his balls apart from his face. No need to give any weight to their opinion or hear them whine or orgasm, which is worth nothing.
Don't get your panties tied up in a knot. Temasek Review is meant for Singaporeans who are fed up with being forced fed BS and lies.
Certainly not for bootlickers who spend 24/7 kissing their master's s.
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Might be useful for ppl who are yet to embark.
For those already there - very few would bite - did you actually think that ppl went overseas HOPING that this scheme will be announced?
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NUS medical school should declare the number of foreigners it accepts in each cohort.
Singapore's addiction to foreigners should not result in the SAF having insufficient doctors
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just because you have friends who failed in BOTH, doesn't mean everyone else does.
not everyone hankers over a scholarship deal, especially when mummy and daddy can well afford it.
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so whats this about buying that "insurance fund"?..... if your kids are stupid, they are stupid.
you can only TRY and buy them a decent education and hope for the best.
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Wow, this forum is defintely infested with as many atheletic canines for certain other tribes as 'bootlickers, the way, they infest every thread with irrelevant comments that clearly point to their being of this exotic species belonging to the other tribes!!!
Grants for S'poreans studying medicine abroad
By Rachel Lin
RESTRUCTURED hospitals are looking into giving pre-employment grants to Singaporeans studying medicine overseas, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan announced yesterday.
The grant will cover part of the students' university fees. Recipients have to serve a bond in Singapore after they graduate.
An encounter with a young party activist in his Sembawang branch made him realise the usefulness of the idea, which had first been thrown up by Dr Lily Neo (Jalan Besar GRC), said Mr Khaw.
The activist was leaving to study medicine in New South Wales, Australia. 'Among the 60 international students in her batch, she noted that 40 were Singaporeans!' the minister exclaimed.
Mr Khaw blogged about this on Facebook. In his post, he said that the ministry's aggressive recruitment of foreign medical graduates had worked, but Singapore students should not be neglected.
'I will figure out a way to help them in a meaningful manner and secure their return to Singapore,' he wrote. 'I am sure it can be done, to get our kids back!'
The tuition fees for the Sembawang activist's medical degree amounted to over $40,000 a year, Mr Khaw said in his blog post.
She did not qualify for medical school at the National University of Singapore but still wanted to be a doctor, he said.Be 100% confident banking online with DBS iBanking money safe guarantee
According to a Health Ministry spokesman, an estimated 150 Singaporeans go overseas to study medicine each year.
'The number of fresh Singaporean graduates with overseas medical degrees coming back to practise every year has more than doubled from 14 in 2005 to 38 in 2009,' the spokesman said.
Another 130 returned between 2005 and 2009 after their housemanship or after working a few years overseas.
Miss Grace Tay, 21, a third-year medical student at University College Dublin, welcomed the proposed grant. She is considering working in Ireland.
'If I had been given this option in first year, I would have been very happy to come back to Singapore,' she said.
'It would benefit me a lot, but for the very well-off, it wouldn't make much of a difference. Needy students would benefit the most and be motivated to come back.'
Her tuition fees are around $55,000 a year.
The proposed grant is in line with the ministry's $1.5 billion plan, launched in 2007, to recruit 7,700 more health-care professionals in five years.
So far, the target remains in sight, Mr Khaw told the House. Last year, headcount went up by 44 per cent compared to 2006. There were eight doctors and 26 nurses for every 10 hospital beds, up from six doctors and 20 nurses in 2006.
Staff attrition levels declined over the same period, from 8 per cent to 6 per cent for doctors and 10 per cent to 7 per cent for nurses.
'I met a group of hospital medical social workers last month,' Mr Khaw said. 'They told me that, with so many new recruits, many have no offices. Hospitals are rushing to add new work stations.'
The ministry is also setting aside $120 million to enhance its specialist training programmes over the next five years.
'This will allow every young doctor to reach his maximum potential in his chosen speciality, including as a family physician,' the minister explained.
Nurses are not excluded. The ministry aims to train 200 new advanced practice nurses in the next five years.
There are currently 37 such nurses on the register.
These nurses hold master's degrees in nursing and undergo a special internship. They are equipped with the skills to perform tasks that are otherwise assigned to junior doctors, such as interpreting diagnostic tests.
By Rachel Lin
RESTRUCTURED hospitals are looking into giving pre-employment grants to Singaporeans studying medicine overseas, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan announced yesterday.
The grant will cover part of the students' university fees. Recipients have to serve a bond in Singapore after they graduate.
An encounter with a young party activist in his Sembawang branch made him realise the usefulness of the idea, which had first been thrown up by Dr Lily Neo (Jalan Besar GRC), said Mr Khaw.
The activist was leaving to study medicine in New South Wales, Australia. 'Among the 60 international students in her batch, she noted that 40 were Singaporeans!' the minister exclaimed.
Mr Khaw blogged about this on Facebook. In his post, he said that the ministry's aggressive recruitment of foreign medical graduates had worked, but Singapore students should not be neglected.
'I will figure out a way to help them in a meaningful manner and secure their return to Singapore,' he wrote. 'I am sure it can be done, to get our kids back!'
The tuition fees for the Sembawang activist's medical degree amounted to over $40,000 a year, Mr Khaw said in his blog post.
She did not qualify for medical school at the National University of Singapore but still wanted to be a doctor, he said.Be 100% confident banking online with DBS iBanking money safe guarantee
According to a Health Ministry spokesman, an estimated 150 Singaporeans go overseas to study medicine each year.
'The number of fresh Singaporean graduates with overseas medical degrees coming back to practise every year has more than doubled from 14 in 2005 to 38 in 2009,' the spokesman said.
Another 130 returned between 2005 and 2009 after their housemanship or after working a few years overseas.
Miss Grace Tay, 21, a third-year medical student at University College Dublin, welcomed the proposed grant. She is considering working in Ireland.
'If I had been given this option in first year, I would have been very happy to come back to Singapore,' she said.
'It would benefit me a lot, but for the very well-off, it wouldn't make much of a difference. Needy students would benefit the most and be motivated to come back.'
Her tuition fees are around $55,000 a year.
The proposed grant is in line with the ministry's $1.5 billion plan, launched in 2007, to recruit 7,700 more health-care professionals in five years.
So far, the target remains in sight, Mr Khaw told the House. Last year, headcount went up by 44 per cent compared to 2006. There were eight doctors and 26 nurses for every 10 hospital beds, up from six doctors and 20 nurses in 2006.
Staff attrition levels declined over the same period, from 8 per cent to 6 per cent for doctors and 10 per cent to 7 per cent for nurses.
'I met a group of hospital medical social workers last month,' Mr Khaw said. 'They told me that, with so many new recruits, many have no offices. Hospitals are rushing to add new work stations.'
The ministry is also setting aside $120 million to enhance its specialist training programmes over the next five years.
'This will allow every young doctor to reach his maximum potential in his chosen speciality, including as a family physician,' the minister explained.
Nurses are not excluded. The ministry aims to train 200 new advanced practice nurses in the next five years.
There are currently 37 such nurses on the register.
These nurses hold master's degrees in nursing and undergo a special internship. They are equipped with the skills to perform tasks that are otherwise assigned to junior doctors, such as interpreting diagnostic tests.
SINGAPORE - When a medical student told him that at her university in Australia, 40 of the 60 international students in her batch were Singaporeans, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan had vowed on Facebook to "find a way to 'get our kids back' to Singapore".
"And I will," he reaffirmed yesterday, sharing with Parliament how he might go about doing so.
Singaporeans who want to study medicine overseas, a highly expensive undertaking, could one day be able to tap a Government grant.
"The restructured hospitals are studying an idea of offering a pre-employment grant to these medical students, to help them with their cost overseas, in return for a bond to serve after they graduate," said Mr Khaw.
According to the Ministry of Health (MOH), about 150 Singaporeans head overseas to study medicine every year. But from 2005 to 2009, only 110 returned after graduation, while another 130 returned after their housemanship or working a few years.
In the case of the young medical student that Mr Khaw cited, she had applied - unsuccessfully - to the NUS Yong Loo Lin School of Medicine. Determined as she was to be a doctor, and despite the strain of the more-than-$40,000 tuition fee per year, her parents supported her move to Sydney.
While Singapore will continue its "aggressive recruitment" of foreign medical graduates, Mr Khaw wrote in his Feb 9 post, locals like her who struggle financially are also on his mind for some "meaningful" help.
The proposal of a grant comes six months after Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong signalled that Singapore would continue to look at ways to expand the core pool of local doctors, even after raising the annual intake at medical schools here to 350 new doctors a year. This number would still not be enough to cope with a growing and ageing population, Mr Lee had noted.
Ms Melanie Tan, 18, now scouting for schools abroad, believes a grant would ease the financial burden of studying overseas, and even sway her mind about possibly not returning to Singapore after graduation.
But how long should the bond be? That could depend on the size of the grant offered.
Singapore Medical Association president Chong Yeh Woei, who welcomed the idea of the financial leg up, noted that five years of medical school in the United Kingdom could cost at least $500,000. Hospitals would have to work out how sizeable a grant they can afford, said chief executive of Changi General Hospital T K Udairam.
MP Lily Neo (Jalan Besar GRC) - whom Mr Khaw credited with coming up with the idea of the grant several years back - suggested the Government could take its cue from the current system where local medical students are bonded for five years after graduation. After Government subsidy, they pay roughly $80,000 in tuition fees for five years, said Dr Neo and Dr Chong.
Mr Udairam feels most students would view the bond positively in terms of an assured job after they graduate. Medical student Joel Tan, 21, agreed: "It has become increasingly hard to find internship places overseas especially in Australia, where ... priority is given to citizens and permanent residents."
Meanwhile, giving a mid-course update on MOH's $1.5-billion effort to recruit 7,700 more healthcare professionals over five years, Mr Khaw reported that since 2007, headcounts have increased by 44 per cent, There are now eight doctors instead of six per 10 beds, and 26 nurses instead of just 20 per 10 beds.
Young doctors can also look forward to better training opportunities, with $120 million to be spent on strengthening specialist training programmes over the next five years.
Another advice for those thinking of returning : it is wishful thinking if you are expecting your seniors to teach you something. They are too busy with themselves, and young docs are thrown into the deep end of the pool to sink or swim.
Furthermore, the current system provides limited placements for further training.
It's gonna take heaps more than a stupid grant attached to a bond to 'lure them home'. I feel more welcome in Aus than when I 'visit' Sgp during the summer. Both my folks are doctors in Sgp and they tell me to stay in Aus; I'm suspecting it's NOT because they hate me.
I love Sgp and I'd gladly give up my 'grant' and prospective salary for wiser allocation of healthcare funds. i.e. not a few million to the minister please!
Vote with awareness this coming elections all ye healthcare workers.
To all medical students (nurses and doctors),
do not come back to regret. Always explore overseas whether there is any option(s) remaining before coming back to Singapore.
Don't be stupid and die in Singapore.Mr Government, you are treading on trading/buying of souls here- is that the legacy of the PAP government, buying and selling souls?
If our educated have no heart to serve our countrymen, there is no point putting a bond on their souls. Resorting to gold and royalty treatment to get them back will poison their hearts further. We can't risk lives in the hands of "spoilt royalties" you know. And I certainly won't want them to treat me or my family - with no heart, they are unqualified practitioners!
I think the problems lies with you and how you have used money to motivate/buy your people - primarily your own kind.
Not a good idea to come home.
It will be a nightmarish time serving your 5 year bond? in the restructured hospitals.
And you will always play 2nd fiddle to those cheap foreign doctors.They take in a lot of PR... PAY FULL Med course fee for them, They become DOCTORS... PRs favourite PRs, Med sch in NUS have n?! % of PR's kid... so... Singaporean pay big bucks send their kid oversea to do Med, OUR excellent local kids become PR of others, contribute to others???!!! now they said short of DOCTORS??? Doctors works long hours!! Where are all those heavy funded scholars/PR? selling food in NUS?? Become chef? Merchant? PAP cannot be WRONG!!!The minister is always behind the curve, reacting only when things get blown up. It has always been known that there is a doctor shortage, and now the beds crunch. Why do we pay civil servants so much to do so little?
When is the MOH and the minister going to address the long hours put in by the doctors.
Overseas students should do a proper assessment of working conditions before they return. Many will not be able to tolerate the 30+ hours oncall.
Khaw can vow all he wants, but he's barking in the wrong direction.
The question should be, why aren't our kids in our local uni in the first place? The problem probably lies with the fact that the NUS medical school remains to be an elitist one and unnecessarily raises the entry requirements without considering other confounding factors.
I've had several friends who couldn't enter med school here, and chose to do so in the US/Australia/UK, etc. Life was extremely hard since they were not well-to-do, but that aside, they excelled tremendously! And I'm glad they chose to shun coming back here to work because they also found out that not only does the med school here to be too snooty, the work life of doctors here are too restricted and biased towards research grants.
The govt can dangle the dollar signs all they want, but it's really sad that they're really deaf frogs who have no clue about the root causes at all.If there are 2 students with equal degrees, one from the UK and another from NUS, who do u think will do extremely well in the A&E department in a hospital?
The same students take an examination. The NUS MBBS will beat the UK MBBS hands down. But, the UK student will beat the NUS MBBS hands down in the A&E department.
What is education to you? Just to collect the MBBS at your graduation or do you wanna be good? If you wanna be good, NUS is not the place for you.
I have studied in the UK and NUS and I am going to the USA.
Don't come back. Seek not what you can do for the country but what the country can do for you. This PAP gov is very irresponsible towards the people I totally agree with you GoshKosh. Why not put the money into training more medical students instead of using the money to come up with recruitment talks, exercises, campaigns etc. to draw foreign medical students back? However, if we have limited resources to train medical students, maybe MOH could propose giving scholarships for overseas Medicine and not just for nursing and allied health.
A local bond is a bond is a bond that can be broken too.Dear Mr Khaw,
Wouldn't it save everyone a lot more money if we just took in more medical students in our local institutions? Why spend a billion or billions recruiting people whom our institutions rejected in the first place?
A bond is a bond is a bond that can be broken.
Dear Mr Khaw,
I am a 3rd year medical student in Australia. Many of my pals, in fact half of the international student population in my university, are Singaporeans. It is sad that many would love to practice in Sydney instead of returning to Singapore. I hope that the grant could be implemented as soon as possible to assist us with our financial burdens and make foreign trained medical students want to return to our home country to work. Many policies are constantly being brought up, however, they do take a long time to be implemented. If this plan of giving out a grant is implemented quickly for students currently studying medicine overseas, it would be a great incentive for us to return to Singapore to work.
Dear Mr Khaw,
For God's sake, please leave these people alone. Australia offers a higher quality of life compare to the dictatorship. You want them to come back and be dogs? I am leaving to do a Ph.D. in medicine and I am not coming back to be a dog of the PAP.
"And I will," he reaffirmed yesterday, sharing with Parliament how he might go about doing so.
Singaporeans who want to study medicine overseas, a highly expensive undertaking, could one day be able to tap a Government grant.
"The restructured hospitals are studying an idea of offering a pre-employment grant to these medical students, to help them with their cost overseas, in return for a bond to serve after they graduate," said Mr Khaw.
According to the Ministry of Health (MOH), about 150 Singaporeans head overseas to study medicine every year. But from 2005 to 2009, only 110 returned after graduation, while another 130 returned after their housemanship or working a few years.
In the case of the young medical student that Mr Khaw cited, she had applied - unsuccessfully - to the NUS Yong Loo Lin School of Medicine. Determined as she was to be a doctor, and despite the strain of the more-than-$40,000 tuition fee per year, her parents supported her move to Sydney.
While Singapore will continue its "aggressive recruitment" of foreign medical graduates, Mr Khaw wrote in his Feb 9 post, locals like her who struggle financially are also on his mind for some "meaningful" help.
The proposal of a grant comes six months after Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong signalled that Singapore would continue to look at ways to expand the core pool of local doctors, even after raising the annual intake at medical schools here to 350 new doctors a year. This number would still not be enough to cope with a growing and ageing population, Mr Lee had noted.
Ms Melanie Tan, 18, now scouting for schools abroad, believes a grant would ease the financial burden of studying overseas, and even sway her mind about possibly not returning to Singapore after graduation.
But how long should the bond be? That could depend on the size of the grant offered.
Singapore Medical Association president Chong Yeh Woei, who welcomed the idea of the financial leg up, noted that five years of medical school in the United Kingdom could cost at least $500,000. Hospitals would have to work out how sizeable a grant they can afford, said chief executive of Changi General Hospital T K Udairam.
MP Lily Neo (Jalan Besar GRC) - whom Mr Khaw credited with coming up with the idea of the grant several years back - suggested the Government could take its cue from the current system where local medical students are bonded for five years after graduation. After Government subsidy, they pay roughly $80,000 in tuition fees for five years, said Dr Neo and Dr Chong.
Mr Udairam feels most students would view the bond positively in terms of an assured job after they graduate. Medical student Joel Tan, 21, agreed: "It has become increasingly hard to find internship places overseas especially in Australia, where ... priority is given to citizens and permanent residents."
Meanwhile, giving a mid-course update on MOH's $1.5-billion effort to recruit 7,700 more healthcare professionals over five years, Mr Khaw reported that since 2007, headcounts have increased by 44 per cent, There are now eight doctors instead of six per 10 beds, and 26 nurses instead of just 20 per 10 beds.
Young doctors can also look forward to better training opportunities, with $120 million to be spent on strengthening specialist training programmes over the next five years.
Another advice for those thinking of returning : it is wishful thinking if you are expecting your seniors to teach you something. They are too busy with themselves, and young docs are thrown into the deep end of the pool to sink or swim.
Furthermore, the current system provides limited placements for further training.
It's gonna take heaps more than a stupid grant attached to a bond to 'lure them home'. I feel more welcome in Aus than when I 'visit' Sgp during the summer. Both my folks are doctors in Sgp and they tell me to stay in Aus; I'm suspecting it's NOT because they hate me.
I love Sgp and I'd gladly give up my 'grant' and prospective salary for wiser allocation of healthcare funds. i.e. not a few million to the minister please!
Vote with awareness this coming elections all ye healthcare workers.
To all medical students (nurses and doctors),
do not come back to regret. Always explore overseas whether there is any option(s) remaining before coming back to Singapore.
Don't be stupid and die in Singapore.Mr Government, you are treading on trading/buying of souls here- is that the legacy of the PAP government, buying and selling souls?
If our educated have no heart to serve our countrymen, there is no point putting a bond on their souls. Resorting to gold and royalty treatment to get them back will poison their hearts further. We can't risk lives in the hands of "spoilt royalties" you know. And I certainly won't want them to treat me or my family - with no heart, they are unqualified practitioners!
I think the problems lies with you and how you have used money to motivate/buy your people - primarily your own kind.
Not a good idea to come home.
It will be a nightmarish time serving your 5 year bond? in the restructured hospitals.
And you will always play 2nd fiddle to those cheap foreign doctors.They take in a lot of PR... PAY FULL Med course fee for them, They become DOCTORS... PRs favourite PRs, Med sch in NUS have n?! % of PR's kid... so... Singaporean pay big bucks send their kid oversea to do Med, OUR excellent local kids become PR of others, contribute to others???!!! now they said short of DOCTORS??? Doctors works long hours!! Where are all those heavy funded scholars/PR? selling food in NUS?? Become chef? Merchant? PAP cannot be WRONG!!!The minister is always behind the curve, reacting only when things get blown up. It has always been known that there is a doctor shortage, and now the beds crunch. Why do we pay civil servants so much to do so little?
When is the MOH and the minister going to address the long hours put in by the doctors.
Overseas students should do a proper assessment of working conditions before they return. Many will not be able to tolerate the 30+ hours oncall.
Khaw can vow all he wants, but he's barking in the wrong direction.
The question should be, why aren't our kids in our local uni in the first place? The problem probably lies with the fact that the NUS medical school remains to be an elitist one and unnecessarily raises the entry requirements without considering other confounding factors.
I've had several friends who couldn't enter med school here, and chose to do so in the US/Australia/UK, etc. Life was extremely hard since they were not well-to-do, but that aside, they excelled tremendously! And I'm glad they chose to shun coming back here to work because they also found out that not only does the med school here to be too snooty, the work life of doctors here are too restricted and biased towards research grants.
The govt can dangle the dollar signs all they want, but it's really sad that they're really deaf frogs who have no clue about the root causes at all.If there are 2 students with equal degrees, one from the UK and another from NUS, who do u think will do extremely well in the A&E department in a hospital?
The same students take an examination. The NUS MBBS will beat the UK MBBS hands down. But, the UK student will beat the NUS MBBS hands down in the A&E department.
What is education to you? Just to collect the MBBS at your graduation or do you wanna be good? If you wanna be good, NUS is not the place for you.
I have studied in the UK and NUS and I am going to the USA.
Don't come back. Seek not what you can do for the country but what the country can do for you. This PAP gov is very irresponsible towards the people I totally agree with you GoshKosh. Why not put the money into training more medical students instead of using the money to come up with recruitment talks, exercises, campaigns etc. to draw foreign medical students back? However, if we have limited resources to train medical students, maybe MOH could propose giving scholarships for overseas Medicine and not just for nursing and allied health.
A local bond is a bond is a bond that can be broken too.Dear Mr Khaw,
Wouldn't it save everyone a lot more money if we just took in more medical students in our local institutions? Why spend a billion or billions recruiting people whom our institutions rejected in the first place?
A bond is a bond is a bond that can be broken.
Dear Mr Khaw,
I am a 3rd year medical student in Australia. Many of my pals, in fact half of the international student population in my university, are Singaporeans. It is sad that many would love to practice in Sydney instead of returning to Singapore. I hope that the grant could be implemented as soon as possible to assist us with our financial burdens and make foreign trained medical students want to return to our home country to work. Many policies are constantly being brought up, however, they do take a long time to be implemented. If this plan of giving out a grant is implemented quickly for students currently studying medicine overseas, it would be a great incentive for us to return to Singapore to work.
Dear Mr Khaw,
For God's sake, please leave these people alone. Australia offers a higher quality of life compare to the dictatorship. You want them to come back and be dogs? I am leaving to do a Ph.D. in medicine and I am not coming back to be a dog of the PAP.
MOH mulling grants for S'porean medical students studying overseas
By Imelda Saad, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 09 March 2010 1621 hrs
SINGAPORE: Public hospitals are studying the idea of offering pre-employment grants to Singaporean medical students studying overseas, to help them with their cost, in return for a bond to serve after they graduate.
Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan revealed this in Parliament as he laid out his ministry's priorities for the year.
19-year-old Singaporean, Evetor Sim, recently graduated from an international school in China. In September, she will head to the University of Manchester to study medicine. Her parents are forking out some $300,000 in tuition fees.
A grant, she said, will help ease the financial burden, but the concern is the bond that may be tied to this grant.
She said: "I would definitely take into serious consideration the grant because doing a medical degree overseas is very expensive and the living expenses also are very expensive. I think the only thing that holds me back from signing on for this scheme is the inflexibility of having to return back after your studies and having to serve your bond with the government hospitals."
Locally-trained doctors, who receive subsidies in the medical school, are already bonded to work at public hospitals for up to five years after graduation.
NUS medical students are bonded for five years. Duke-NUS Graduate medical students who are Singaporeans are bonded for four years, while PRs and international students are bonded five years.
The Singapore Medical Association says bringing in locals trained overseas will plug the gap to meet demand for doctors in the years ahead.
Dr Chong Yeh Woei, president of Singapore Medical Association, said: "I think with the shortage of doctors, the most important thing is we can bring in foreign doctors but I believe our local patients would still want locally-trained doctors or local doctors to treat them. I think this is because of the cultural context and the languages that we speak."
The proposal to get more local doctors is part of the government's plan for healthcare as Singaporeans grow older and live longer.
There will be greater emphasis on geriatric as well as mental health, with S$120 million set aside to strengthen specialist training over the next five years.
Another S$57 million will go into enhancing follow-up care for mental health patients.
Mr Khaw said: "Our follow-up care is getting better but we know there are still gaps. MPs' comments earlier confirm this. I am therefore adding a further $57m for mental health initiatives, on top of the $123m already committed. This is a significant $180m commitment to enhancing our mental health programme.
"Part of the new budget will be used to increase psychiatric nursing manpower. Another will go towards setting up a long term monitoring and risk assessment system. It will help identify and provide support for patients who default follow-up appointments for treatment, thereby reducing the number who relapse because they do not take their medication."
Responding to concerns that the increase in foreign worker levies will hit nursing homes, Mr Khaw said his ministry will raise the subsidies for such homes by about 7 percent to help them cope with the higher cost of operations.
Other healthcare initiatives include plans for three new nursing homes and rebuilding three old ones in larger facilities in better locations within HDB towns.
The minister described the restructuring of the healthcare system in Singapore as a quiet revolution. He said if done well, results will show in 10 years. The key is to avoid unnecessary hospitalisation, have better integration between hospitals and community partners as well as help patients achieve successful aging at home.
CSP = Commonwealth Supported Place. Most of the local students have CSPs, which means that they get discounted fees and priority for internships. The rest of the local students are full fee-paying, and their fees are almost as high as ours
NSW's IMET (institute of medical education/training) just put out the information for how they'll allocate internship places in the near future. Starting in 2011, the international student disadvantage will become less of a disadvantage. Here's a quick summary:
1. Local CSP students will be guaranteed an internship.
2. After all of the CSP students get their internships, there will be no preference given to domestic students. All applications will be judged on merit.
That means that international students are no longer "last-priority" for internships. Sure, it's still not guaranteed, but now we know that we'll at least be competing with the local students instead of just being shuffled to the back of the line.
Also, ANU grads (100 people) will no longer be included in the NSW internship pool, so that lessens the blow of the new graduating class from UoW (I think that's less than 100 people).
Most of the local students have a CSP spot, so this isn't a night-and-day difference... but it does significantly increase our chances of getting an internship. Instead of being at the bottom of the list and fighting for a place with other international students, we'll be competing with the domestic students who were at the bottom of the admissions list.
NSW's IMET (institute of medical education/training) just put out the information for how they'll allocate internship places in the near future. Starting in 2011, the international student disadvantage will become less of a disadvantage. Here's a quick summary:
1. Local CSP students will be guaranteed an internship.
2. After all of the CSP students get their internships, there will be no preference given to domestic students. All applications will be judged on merit.
That means that international students are no longer "last-priority" for internships. Sure, it's still not guaranteed, but now we know that we'll at least be competing with the local students instead of just being shuffled to the back of the line.
Also, ANU grads (100 people) will no longer be included in the NSW internship pool, so that lessens the blow of the new graduating class from UoW (I think that's less than 100 people).
Most of the local students have a CSP spot, so this isn't a night-and-day difference... but it does significantly increase our chances of getting an internship. Instead of being at the bottom of the list and fighting for a place with other international students, we'll be competing with the domestic students who were at the bottom of the admissions list.
By the way I talked to the admission dean at University of Sydney. She said that currently, there is no problem for international students getting internships but in four years, they do expect having difficulty to place international students (IMG + international students trained for MBBS in Aussie) for internship or residency in Australia in general, including rural areas. That's discouraging, but c'est la vie, like the French said.
Originally Posted by Dr.Millisevert
That is correct. You can also go to the US/Canada/UK, etc. You just have to complete the same internship paperwork and prove that you have completed the same runs/attachments and have completed the same goals and objectives for each attachment. (ie. that your internship is equivalent to an Australian one)
I just read that UK put a restriction on international medical graduates and international students studying in UK to come to / stay in UK as a doctor in training. The restriction came in force in February 2008, so I think it will be very hard, if not impossible, to get internship in UK?
Originally Posted by Dr.Millisevert
That is correct. You can also go to the US/Canada/UK, etc. You just have to complete the same internship paperwork and prove that you have completed the same runs/attachments and have completed the same goals and objectives for each attachment. (ie. that your internship is equivalent to an Australian one)
I just read that UK put a restriction on international medical graduates and international students studying in UK to come to / stay in UK as a doctor in training. The restriction came in force in February 2008, so I think it will be very hard, if not impossible, to get internship in UK?
I heard that due to the increasing number of medical graduates, they (Australian schools) could not guarantee internship posts for international students. On the other hand, internship is compulsory for medical registration- so how is this going to be?
Or can we do internship outside Australia? For example, after graduating with MBBS from Aussie, then we do one year internship in Singapore, then go back to Aussie to continue residency/specialist training? If so, what countries are the options to do internship
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Briefly yes it's possible.
The AMC recognises internships from Malaysia, Singapore and New Zealand. There may be other recognised countries but those are the three that are considered equivalent to Australian internship.
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Also I think you can go rural, can't you? From what I've heard there will be a lot of spots open in rural areas?
Or can we do internship outside Australia? For example, after graduating with MBBS from Aussie, then we do one year internship in Singapore, then go back to Aussie to continue residency/specialist training? If so, what countries are the options to do internship
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Briefly yes it's possible.
The AMC recognises internships from Malaysia, Singapore and New Zealand. There may be other recognised countries but those are the three that are considered equivalent to Australian internship.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also I think you can go rural, can't you? From what I've heard there will be a lot of spots open in rural areas?
ISAT Scores for Critical Reasoning (CR), Quantitative Reasoning (QR) and Overall Reasoning (OR) are scaled in the range of 100-200.
ISAT scores are comparable between different versions of the test.
Percentiles (%ILE) show the percentage of candidates whose scores are lower than the reported ISAT score.
Critical Reasoning Quantitative Reasoning Overall Reasoning
SCORE %ILE SCORE %ILE SCORE %ILE
178 81 185 91 182 89
Typical skills measured by ISAT:
Critical Reasoning
Analyse information to determine the key claims or issues.
Draw approppriate inferences and recognise main implications.
Relate claims or information beyond the immediate context.
Evaluate the significance and credibility of claims or information.
Quantitative Reasoning
Analyse and categorise material to identify key information, and comprehend and summarise relationships.
Make inferences and decisions based on evidence.
Transform, reorganise, synthesise and apply information as appropriate for problems and decision making situations.
Conceptualise a strategy to solve problems or identify solutions.
Overall Reasoning
Comprehend, analyse and apply information, transforming it as appropriate.
Evaluate information, evidence and claims.
Draw appropriate inferences and make reasoned decisions.
Generate and evaluate solutions to problems.
ISAT scores are comparable between different versions of the test.
Percentiles (%ILE) show the percentage of candidates whose scores are lower than the reported ISAT score.
Critical Reasoning Quantitative Reasoning Overall Reasoning
SCORE %ILE SCORE %ILE SCORE %ILE
178 81 185 91 182 89
Typical skills measured by ISAT:
Critical Reasoning
Analyse information to determine the key claims or issues.
Draw approppriate inferences and recognise main implications.
Relate claims or information beyond the immediate context.
Evaluate the significance and credibility of claims or information.
Quantitative Reasoning
Analyse and categorise material to identify key information, and comprehend and summarise relationships.
Make inferences and decisions based on evidence.
Transform, reorganise, synthesise and apply information as appropriate for problems and decision making situations.
Conceptualise a strategy to solve problems or identify solutions.
Overall Reasoning
Comprehend, analyse and apply information, transforming it as appropriate.
Evaluate information, evidence and claims.
Draw appropriate inferences and make reasoned decisions.
Generate and evaluate solutions to problems.
OMFG I've been notified of an early decision interview in May for Flinders University by Dr. Tony Edwards!!!
I've never even got an interview for the US meds; having been offered an interview put a smile on my face. Makes me feel like I'm not such a failure after all. I've been feeling that way ever since every single US medical school rejected me without even an interview offer. But now I actually have something to hope for!
But... now what? I've got an interview, but how do I prepare for it? Getting an interview is only half the battle. It would suck if I underestimated the interviews and didn't get in because of that =/. Hmm... I know there are some threads on the paging dr. boards with past interview questions, I think I'll start with that
I've never even got an interview for the US meds; having been offered an interview put a smile on my face. Makes me feel like I'm not such a failure after all. I've been feeling that way ever since every single US medical school rejected me without even an interview offer. But now I actually have something to hope for!
But... now what? I've got an interview, but how do I prepare for it? Getting an interview is only half the battle. It would suck if I underestimated the interviews and didn't get in because of that =/. Hmm... I know there are some threads on the paging dr. boards with past interview questions, I think I'll start with that
Yep, I was in a hurry and wrote CSP instead of MRBS.
Im not the army type, but seriously, if you need the money, then join the army after the first year. You get over 30k per annum, subsidised rent and food and no hecs debt for the remainder of the degree, and then you owe them the number of years they paid you during your degree (3, generally) after graduation. (This is opposed to the deal where you sign up as soon as you get your offer, which sees you getting paid heaps more, but then you owe them 6-8 years of service.) Sure, you may wind up being a glorified pecker-checker for a good portion of that, but I have also spoken to doctors who recieved the most amazing access to speciality training of their choice through the armed forces.
And JJJJ, if your young and know for certain that you want to go into rural practice in certain specialities, then the MRBS can be OK, but for those of us who are older and have small children, it is a big gamble, you just dont know where you are going to be. What if I want to go overseas? What if my kids want to be somewhere that I couldnt be? What if I fell in love with a speciality that couldnt be supported by the right area, or what if some other offer came up that I couldnt take? Even though I want to go into rural practice, and have strong feelings about it, I also have my partner to consider, and he may not be so chuffed with me effectively signing his life away along with mine.
Also, I have been on the recieving end of supposedly attractive government funding that turned out be effectively a deferred screw job, so, once bitten and all that.
I would just suggest that any applicant who is interested actually get the information thats available and look through things like the approximated time-line of an MRBS, and for the love of all thats good, when they say that they reccomend that all applicants get a lawyer to read it and advise them, take that advice!!!
Im not the army type, but seriously, if you need the money, then join the army after the first year. You get over 30k per annum, subsidised rent and food and no hecs debt for the remainder of the degree, and then you owe them the number of years they paid you during your degree (3, generally) after graduation. (This is opposed to the deal where you sign up as soon as you get your offer, which sees you getting paid heaps more, but then you owe them 6-8 years of service.) Sure, you may wind up being a glorified pecker-checker for a good portion of that, but I have also spoken to doctors who recieved the most amazing access to speciality training of their choice through the armed forces.
And JJJJ, if your young and know for certain that you want to go into rural practice in certain specialities, then the MRBS can be OK, but for those of us who are older and have small children, it is a big gamble, you just dont know where you are going to be. What if I want to go overseas? What if my kids want to be somewhere that I couldnt be? What if I fell in love with a speciality that couldnt be supported by the right area, or what if some other offer came up that I couldnt take? Even though I want to go into rural practice, and have strong feelings about it, I also have my partner to consider, and he may not be so chuffed with me effectively signing his life away along with mine.
Also, I have been on the recieving end of supposedly attractive government funding that turned out be effectively a deferred screw job, so, once bitten and all that.
I would just suggest that any applicant who is interested actually get the information thats available and look through things like the approximated time-line of an MRBS, and for the love of all thats good, when they say that they reccomend that all applicants get a lawyer to read it and advise them, take that advice!!!
ing this message because it makes a very valuable point. I did not apply for a MRBS when I was looking into med school entry, because of this very issue. At the time, I was single and free to do what I wished with my life. Now, as a trainee, I am five years into a relationship with a guy who professionally couldn't re-locate to a rural area (and indeed, I don't think he'd want to, either). Being unable to look into the future makes it hard to sign on the dotted line for a lot of people – young and old alike.
Leka, given that BMPs are reasonably new to the Australian system, it's difficult to make a judgement based on the experience of others at this point. We are yet to see the repercussions of bonded scholarships within the workforce itself (we're only just seeing the effect of the rural bonded scholarships, which were first phased in around 2001), so there's still a lot to come out in the wash at this point
am glad to read this thread!
I actually placed BMP as my first preference. I think: i didn't get into medicine to be comfortable, to just 'get by' or to climb the heirachy or anything like that. I want to contribute to the crisis out there! I am proud of you BMP-holders! Let's make the most of this opportunity, make connections, attend conferences and get as much experience/ perspective about how to help those who are less fortunate (accessibility wise). I wish you all the best of luck
I actually placed BMP as my first preference. I think: i didn't get into medicine to be comfortable, to just 'get by' or to climb the heirachy or anything like that. I want to contribute to the crisis out there! I am proud of you BMP-holders! Let's make the most of this opportunity, make connections, attend conferences and get as much experience/ perspective about how to help those who are less fortunate (accessibility wise). I wish you all the best of luck
If you're applying through oztrekk or australearn you may not have to go via THx – I just had to print my MCAT scores off from the website and send them. I found that I got a bit of leeway having MCAT scores from a couple of months over the two year deadline, but you should check with each school. Also, if you're in Australia you may want to consider taking the GAMSAT instead of the MCAT – see the GAMSAT boards on this site for more info.
The ACER application is worth taking a look at, but you should be aware that some schools you can apply to independantly (in addition to the ACER applications), particularly if you're an international student.
If you're just beginning your undergraduate degree, have you considered applying for permanent residency status? If it's an option to you I'd give it a go – the competition within the international student body is still considerable, and it's much less expensive if you're an Australian resident. Some food for thought, anyways.
The ACER application is worth taking a look at, but you should be aware that some schools you can apply to independantly (in addition to the ACER applications), particularly if you're an international student.
If you're just beginning your undergraduate degree, have you considered applying for permanent residency status? If it's an option to you I'd give it a go – the competition within the international student body is still considerable, and it's much less expensive if you're an Australian resident. Some food for thought, anyways.
Very recently my brother's friends' friends were applying for GP training/fellowship (I dont know the exact term) in an urban area, were rejected on the basis that they were not Australian citizen nor permanent residence when they applied and entered Australian Med schools. (They were Kiwis)
The legislation involved is Section 19 AB of Health Insurance Act 1979.
They were rejected because they were not allowed to provide 'medical benefits' (Medicare) for at least 10 years under the Law. Thus making them 'unattractive' to hospitals, public and private and the only way to do anything is to go to 'areas of needs'. This does not apply to internship training because you are not registered as a 'medical practitioner' yet.
My question is that do the medical school tell you that sort of things before you apply? Because even though international students are paying full fee, they still have to do 10 years of practice in an 'area of need' and almost make it impossible for them to specialize.
I also noticed how 'specific' the UQ online interview offer thing was, the part where they want you to declare yourself as a permanent resident, visa holder, Aus citizen etc.
The legislation involved is Section 19 AB of Health Insurance Act 1979.
They were rejected because they were not allowed to provide 'medical benefits' (Medicare) for at least 10 years under the Law. Thus making them 'unattractive' to hospitals, public and private and the only way to do anything is to go to 'areas of needs'. This does not apply to internship training because you are not registered as a 'medical practitioner' yet.
My question is that do the medical school tell you that sort of things before you apply? Because even though international students are paying full fee, they still have to do 10 years of practice in an 'area of need' and almost make it impossible for them to specialize.
I also noticed how 'specific' the UQ online interview offer thing was, the part where they want you to declare yourself as a permanent resident, visa holder, Aus citizen etc.
I just wanted to add this bit of advice to international students planning on studying med in Australia —-
Don't wait until after you get your offer letter to start thinking about the visa application process. Phone your nearest Australian Consulate and find out what you will need to get your student visa.
I used to work in an International Admissions section and did my little bit to help bring International students in to do the MBBS program one year, and getting visas on time is an important issue.
Usually, especially for countries like the USA and Canada, applying for a visa is straight forward and only takes (I think) a couple of weeks.
However, there has been the odd occasion where the health checks or some other aspect of the application procedure has taken longer than expected and students arrived in Australia with no time to settle in, or even a few days late for the course to begin. Not ideal as the MBBS is pretty full on from day one.
With offers going out at the end of the year and the MBBS program starting in January, there is a relatively small window for getting your visa organized. As I said, usually there is little problem, but sometimes there are one or two students for whom there are unexpected difficulties.
Visas cannot be processed without an official Offer Letter from a university, but you may be able to get a head start on getting your health check, or some other requirement, organized. If something comes up on your health check, you may be able to get advice from the consulate on whether it might delay your visa processing.
Don't wait until after you get your offer letter to start thinking about the visa application process. Phone your nearest Australian Consulate and find out what you will need to get your student visa.
I used to work in an International Admissions section and did my little bit to help bring International students in to do the MBBS program one year, and getting visas on time is an important issue.
Usually, especially for countries like the USA and Canada, applying for a visa is straight forward and only takes (I think) a couple of weeks.
However, there has been the odd occasion where the health checks or some other aspect of the application procedure has taken longer than expected and students arrived in Australia with no time to settle in, or even a few days late for the course to begin. Not ideal as the MBBS is pretty full on from day one.
With offers going out at the end of the year and the MBBS program starting in January, there is a relatively small window for getting your visa organized. As I said, usually there is little problem, but sometimes there are one or two students for whom there are unexpected difficulties.
Visas cannot be processed without an official Offer Letter from a university, but you may be able to get a head start on getting your health check, or some other requirement, organized. If something comes up on your health check, you may be able to get advice from the consulate on whether it might delay your visa processing.
don't know of any international USyd (medicine) students getting offers yet. So just hang in there a while longer! According to the website, local students were meant to receive their offers in November. Perhaps they did a lil switch. Places also open up later in the admissions process due to students rejecting offers, deferring, etc.
I too thought the international places for Monash would be released sooner than the local places. But it turned out to be just the opposite. The wait can be pretty horrific, but try to occupy yourself with work or activities while waiting for offers to come out. What I did was call Monash nearly incessantly every week. Helped the nerves a bit, but I think it didn't help the administrative process much.
Perhaps the pragmatic approach might be best and just plan for both outcomes, though I really do wish you the best of luck. Hope you get it! =)
I too thought the international places for Monash would be released sooner than the local places. But it turned out to be just the opposite. The wait can be pretty horrific, but try to occupy yourself with work or activities while waiting for offers to come out. What I did was call Monash nearly incessantly every week. Helped the nerves a bit, but I think it didn't help the administrative process much.
Perhaps the pragmatic approach might be best and just plan for both outcomes, though I really do wish you the best of luck. Hope you get it! =)
Yes but the difference is Australian citizens will at least be on equal footing when it comes to internship allocations and have a chance of an internship spot. Internationals on the other hand come third in priority and are allocated last. I'm not saying don't come, I just want to make sure everyone is well aware of the situation as about half the internationals in my year didn't know before coming.
That may be true for now, but who knows what will happen four years down the road! All we can do is try our best with the options we have today and cross our fingers. I'm incredibly excited to study at Sydney next year, and I'm not making any plans for residency just yet. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
currently every international student I know of in Australia that will be graduating this year from an Australian university has secured an internship spot inside Australia some in competitive places such as Melbourne and Brisbane (I do not know which hospitals)
However, four years from now, if things remain the same there might not be enough internship spots for Australian citizens, never mind the international students.
However, four years from now, if things remain the same there might not be enough internship spots for Australian citizens, never mind the international students.
For all internationals coming over, its important to keep in mind that unless something changes there are no internship positions available in Australia. With all the extra graduates in the coming years and internationals only being offered internship positions left over after domestic students have all be allocated the chances of getting an internship spot in Australia is very slim to none.
Saturday, March 13, 2010
By the first post, are you referring to the first post of this thread? If so, I would suggest that you require some perspective before you go dumping on the opinion of somebody already in the field. I don't think you can fully appreciate or understand how rotten the system is until you work in it. As to how you (or anyone else) will react to working in it, you don't know that until you try. Much easier to look in and criticise as an outsider, IMO.
Some thoughts on your post:
1) Problem is, society DOES expect doctors to be superhuman. The prestige of the job has been chipped away, so you're not treated like a god, but you are still expected to act like one, and be above human traits. That, even for those of us who sneer at all things "prestige", gets a bit hard to take, day in, day out.
2) As somebody who personally cares very little about money and material gains, I've got to say, I have become MORE interested in money as my working environment has deteriorated. Why? Simply put, there has to be some return for being screwed. It's funny - you start trying to put a price on what your sacrifice and stress is worth - because essentially, it's the only compensation that is offered to you. Nobody's offering better working conditions or a better healthcare system - it's money or nothing. It just becomes the commodity that you trade in. It becomes really easy (and enticing) to look outside of medicine, and see jobs you could easily do, that pay triple what you make now, for half the work. Once the "honour" and "privilege" of being a doctor is totally wrung out through years of systematic abuse, it's very seductive to look elsewhere and think "why not?".
Some thoughts on your post:
1) Problem is, society DOES expect doctors to be superhuman. The prestige of the job has been chipped away, so you're not treated like a god, but you are still expected to act like one, and be above human traits. That, even for those of us who sneer at all things "prestige", gets a bit hard to take, day in, day out.
2) As somebody who personally cares very little about money and material gains, I've got to say, I have become MORE interested in money as my working environment has deteriorated. Why? Simply put, there has to be some return for being screwed. It's funny - you start trying to put a price on what your sacrifice and stress is worth - because essentially, it's the only compensation that is offered to you. Nobody's offering better working conditions or a better healthcare system - it's money or nothing. It just becomes the commodity that you trade in. It becomes really easy (and enticing) to look outside of medicine, and see jobs you could easily do, that pay triple what you make now, for half the work. Once the "honour" and "privilege" of being a doctor is totally wrung out through years of systematic abuse, it's very seductive to look elsewhere and think "why not?".
In my view, the first post is immature and unrealistic.
Being a doctor is a job. It is not like turning into some righteous higher powered being, you are not a godsend. As such, you should not be expected to act like one. We are all human.
Money drives us. Power drives us. Fame drives us. Those that deny this are either not human, or are lying. Some are more idealistic, some aren't. These are human traits and this explains the actions most doctors take, and nothing has changed. It was like this before, and it will always be like this. If you were immature enough to think otherwise before you got into medicine, you have yourself to blame. Stop living in fantasy land, this is how things are, and things aren't going to change. I can see the frustration, but what it comes down to, is what you will do. If you care that much about patients and that little about money, continue to work hard, continue to accept smaller payments, why go to another career when medicine will let you help people more? I mean, money doesn't come into this does it? There really is no need for a reward... right?
Not such a purist now, are we?
Being a doctor is a job. It is not like turning into some righteous higher powered being, you are not a godsend. As such, you should not be expected to act like one. We are all human.
Money drives us. Power drives us. Fame drives us. Those that deny this are either not human, or are lying. Some are more idealistic, some aren't. These are human traits and this explains the actions most doctors take, and nothing has changed. It was like this before, and it will always be like this. If you were immature enough to think otherwise before you got into medicine, you have yourself to blame. Stop living in fantasy land, this is how things are, and things aren't going to change. I can see the frustration, but what it comes down to, is what you will do. If you care that much about patients and that little about money, continue to work hard, continue to accept smaller payments, why go to another career when medicine will let you help people more? I mean, money doesn't come into this does it? There really is no need for a reward... right?
Not such a purist now, are we?
Writing stories about doctor shortages and the rate of professional burn out within doctor ranks simply doesn't sell. The public would far rather read about dodgy doctors making mistakes, and greedy doctors who want more money to add to the piles they have already - it's heaps more fun to cut down (seemingly) tall poppies than face up to reality. In short, the public don't really care if doctors are worked to the bone.
It seems to me that the posters on this thread have either not experienced a career/full time employment or went straight from school to med. I say this because EVERY career/place of employment is totally dominated by bull***t politics. That's life - get used to it. The sooner you accept it, the easier it becomes.
I am leaving my (well paid) IT career of 8 years to hopefully start med next year. Why, because IT is full of bull***t politics and is run by bureaucratic Accountants/CEOs/CFOs etc who have no IT knowledge whatsoever. Sound familiar?????
Breathe easy Boys & Girls. Don't let office politics scare you from following your dreams.... even flipping burgers has it share of egos and McManager power trips, so you might as well enjoy what you do. Right?
I am leaving my (well paid) IT career of 8 years to hopefully start med next year. Why, because IT is full of bull***t politics and is run by bureaucratic Accountants/CEOs/CFOs etc who have no IT knowledge whatsoever. Sound familiar?????
Breathe easy Boys & Girls. Don't let office politics scare you from following your dreams.... even flipping burgers has it share of egos and McManager power trips, so you might as well enjoy what you do. Right?
Dear Medicine,
Although I dislike your training practices very much, I would like to thank you for the strong work ethic that you have taught me. Many countless hours studying for your shelf exams and Steps taught me valuable time management skills that I use to be successful today. Seeing many overworked physicians who were unhappy and complaining about their paycheck made me desire something more. Had I not seen the light because of you, I might have been just another pawn in a never- ending game.
It was worth the months on surgery and OB/GYN. Every prostate that I examined made me want something better out of life. I am thankful that you gave me the adequate number of prostates to examine. Each pelvic exam, while oftentimes smelly and always unpleasant, taught me that I must persevere.
Every attending surgeon that ever belittled me during rounds or in the OR gave me a thick skin. I have used that thick skin while failing numerous times on my way to victory. Each case I scrubbed helped to build my foundation of freedom.
The long nights on call taught me that I’m not that efficient while sleep deprived. Now, I always work well-rested. Thank you medicine, I’ve increased my productivity because of you.
I now work smarter instead of harder, and it’s because of you. You have given me so much — the drive and desire to not be unhappy with life. The drive and desire to do something I am passionate about. The drive and desire to finally be free.
Thank you, Medicine, for four years of hell. Had it not been for those four years, I might have spent a lifetime consumed by fire.
Although I dislike your training practices very much, I would like to thank you for the strong work ethic that you have taught me. Many countless hours studying for your shelf exams and Steps taught me valuable time management skills that I use to be successful today. Seeing many overworked physicians who were unhappy and complaining about their paycheck made me desire something more. Had I not seen the light because of you, I might have been just another pawn in a never- ending game.
It was worth the months on surgery and OB/GYN. Every prostate that I examined made me want something better out of life. I am thankful that you gave me the adequate number of prostates to examine. Each pelvic exam, while oftentimes smelly and always unpleasant, taught me that I must persevere.
Every attending surgeon that ever belittled me during rounds or in the OR gave me a thick skin. I have used that thick skin while failing numerous times on my way to victory. Each case I scrubbed helped to build my foundation of freedom.
The long nights on call taught me that I’m not that efficient while sleep deprived. Now, I always work well-rested. Thank you medicine, I’ve increased my productivity because of you.
I now work smarter instead of harder, and it’s because of you. You have given me so much — the drive and desire to not be unhappy with life. The drive and desire to do something I am passionate about. The drive and desire to finally be free.
Thank you, Medicine, for four years of hell. Had it not been for those four years, I might have spent a lifetime consumed by fire.
think the main reason why people get so disillusioned with med is because they started out with slightly inflated expectations ofhow amazing it was going to be. I know it's gonna be a slog, but i wouldn't have it any other way.
Sure if i don't ass kiss, it'll take me longer to get where i want to be, and my opportunities maybe limited if i don't play the game
But it's MY career choice and i wouldn't have it any other way
I know this is really easy for me to say now, but i feel i won't develop the gradual hard exterior because i know that this career tests you beyond any other reasonable measure. I coud have accepted my place in business law, but i decided that i want to persue something i really wanted, and i'll work long and hard for it.
Playing the game is necessary at times, but i'm of the belief if i can work hard and be one of the best, then i can get to where i want to be. Unrealistic perceptions or not from consultants, or patients, if i know i do a good enough job, i'll be more than content to go to work everyday. That's just me though
Sure if i don't ass kiss, it'll take me longer to get where i want to be, and my opportunities maybe limited if i don't play the game
But it's MY career choice and i wouldn't have it any other way
I know this is really easy for me to say now, but i feel i won't develop the gradual hard exterior because i know that this career tests you beyond any other reasonable measure. I coud have accepted my place in business law, but i decided that i want to persue something i really wanted, and i'll work long and hard for it.
Playing the game is necessary at times, but i'm of the belief if i can work hard and be one of the best, then i can get to where i want to be. Unrealistic perceptions or not from consultants, or patients, if i know i do a good enough job, i'll be more than content to go to work everyday. That's just me though
Why is there so much bureaucracy in medicine?
Why do doctors have so little rights?
Why is medicine the only profession that allows itself to be controlled and bonded by the government?
Why are greedy, monopolistic colleges still in charge of future postgraduate training?
Why is medicine so hierarchal and less collaborative?
What happens when the medical student tsunami finally happens?
I would suggest you guys read this blog:
http://www.medschoolhell.com
Although he is American, alot of what he says is universal for all medical students and graduates.
Why do doctors have so little rights?
Why is medicine the only profession that allows itself to be controlled and bonded by the government?
Why are greedy, monopolistic colleges still in charge of future postgraduate training?
Why is medicine so hierarchal and less collaborative?
What happens when the medical student tsunami finally happens?
I would suggest you guys read this blog:
http://www.medschoolhell.com
Although he is American, alot of what he says is universal for all medical students and graduates.
This thread has made me wish I get into law! Just to increase options. I'm not so sure. I've heard some very senior lawyers who sort of have the same thing: frustration with the courts, anger that their dreams of litigation turned into paper mountains etcetc. Is this a symptom of medicine or is it a symptom of society in general?
Obviously the problems facing medicine are different to other professions, but are they worse?
Obviously the problems facing medicine are different to other professions, but are they worse?
I have a strange feeling that resurrection this thread will stir up some debate.
I think Medicine is a like a spouse. Every now and then u have fight/bad moments (think: exams, consultants/reg hating u.. ) and you have to take out the trash. It' moments like that which I want to divorce it and run off with (in my case) the girl in my mind that is a playboy playmate (think: commercial airline pilot).
But after the cloud has clear I feel better about it. I realised some times its good (when the patients recover and thank us) and some times they are bad (when the patients want to kill me with a bedpan). Frankly I think im keeping in this for the sake of going to the end cos i dun mind it.. and making a decision there. At the end of the day, I will either be a happy consultant.. or a man with a mid life crisis, a 18 yr old gf and a new job as a plumber. .... Kinda like getting married (or civil service for those inclined).
I think Medicine is a like a spouse. Every now and then u have fight/bad moments (think: exams, consultants/reg hating u.. ) and you have to take out the trash. It' moments like that which I want to divorce it and run off with (in my case) the girl in my mind that is a playboy playmate (think: commercial airline pilot).
But after the cloud has clear I feel better about it. I realised some times its good (when the patients recover and thank us) and some times they are bad (when the patients want to kill me with a bedpan). Frankly I think im keeping in this for the sake of going to the end cos i dun mind it.. and making a decision there. At the end of the day, I will either be a happy consultant.. or a man with a mid life crisis, a 18 yr old gf and a new job as a plumber. .... Kinda like getting married (or civil service for those inclined).
What perfect timing to kick up this old article.
Being exams and all I guess makes us hate med even more right now.
When I was reading this article last yr, I knew I had began losing my real passion for it. At this stage of my life, I must say I'm still so interested by medicine and what it has to offer, yet at the same time tired. Just tired in general, tired of study, tired of filling my time off with part time work, tired of sucking up to consultants and registrars etc only for them to hate you for the tiniest of things, and tired of their unrealistic expectations.
Theres so many things I love doing, and like a little child I don't like to think of the hard work required. I want to photograph, I want to travel, I want to live life doing work that's fun and meeting people and gaining worldly experiences.
But still I want to finish med, because I started, and because all in all as far as work goes, it's a decent job.
One interesting thing though, I read somewhere that Gen X's change career paths about 3-4 times in their life, while gen Y's (us i guess) will change 6+. Now in the old days when Anaesthetists became GP's, and that kind of switching would that be considered a career change? Or is it more like my pipe dream of becoming a commercial airline pilot?
Being exams and all I guess makes us hate med even more right now.
When I was reading this article last yr, I knew I had began losing my real passion for it. At this stage of my life, I must say I'm still so interested by medicine and what it has to offer, yet at the same time tired. Just tired in general, tired of study, tired of filling my time off with part time work, tired of sucking up to consultants and registrars etc only for them to hate you for the tiniest of things, and tired of their unrealistic expectations.
Theres so many things I love doing, and like a little child I don't like to think of the hard work required. I want to photograph, I want to travel, I want to live life doing work that's fun and meeting people and gaining worldly experiences.
But still I want to finish med, because I started, and because all in all as far as work goes, it's a decent job.
One interesting thing though, I read somewhere that Gen X's change career paths about 3-4 times in their life, while gen Y's (us i guess) will change 6+. Now in the old days when Anaesthetists became GP's, and that kind of switching would that be considered a career change? Or is it more like my pipe dream of becoming a commercial airline pilot?
all I meant...not trying to make a distinction as to which job is the most demanding or has the most possibility for catastrophe...pilots, flight controllers, defence ministers, politicians, judges...they also can directly impact many lives...any health care worker who has gone off the rails could potentially kill a patient (a Physio with an incorrect spinal manipulation, a nurse with an incorrect drug dose, a pharmacist giving the wrong drug...). Doctors aren’t always in life or death situations with their patients.
That said, I didn’t disagree with the majority of the quote being specific to Med...many other professions don’t have patients they can harm...a teacher skipping some questions or a lawyer making an incorrect plea wont kill anyone (in Aus anyway). If you arent in it for the patients then you shouldnt be in Med...
I second that AussieChica...L337: the advice of others isn’t always the best for you
That said, I didn’t disagree with the majority of the quote being specific to Med...many other professions don’t have patients they can harm...a teacher skipping some questions or a lawyer making an incorrect plea wont kill anyone (in Aus anyway). If you arent in it for the patients then you shouldnt be in Med...
I second that AussieChica...L337: the advice of others isn’t always the best for you
stand firm by your convictions L337, you're the only one who has to live your life!
"OMGWTFBBQ"... what does the BBQ bit stand for?
I think people can get disenchanted w/ any profession, but i think generally u have 2 sacrifice so much more 2 b a dr... from the age of 15 (when u start yr 11) until the end, its work work work work work work work... o and maybe a little play. it puts undue stress on your family, your relationships, your sanity, your time, etc. its one thing getting disenchanted about an office job u took three yrs of uni 2 qualify 4 (a lot of it spent drinking). its another thing 2 put that effort into med and then "discover" its not all that its cracked up 2 b.
wow, i think i just discovered a bias i have about med. i've always believed that every profession is valuable, and whatever u do, u should do it 2 the best of your ability, and if u do that, you're just as good as someone employed in any other career (i.e. "all careers r equal"). but i think on the inside, i believe med is more demanding.
for the record, i think there r other really demanding jobs (single mother of 10 children, anyone?). however, i think the majority r less demanding than med.
"OMGWTFBBQ"... what does the BBQ bit stand for?
I think people can get disenchanted w/ any profession, but i think generally u have 2 sacrifice so much more 2 b a dr... from the age of 15 (when u start yr 11) until the end, its work work work work work work work... o and maybe a little play. it puts undue stress on your family, your relationships, your sanity, your time, etc. its one thing getting disenchanted about an office job u took three yrs of uni 2 qualify 4 (a lot of it spent drinking). its another thing 2 put that effort into med and then "discover" its not all that its cracked up 2 b.
wow, i think i just discovered a bias i have about med. i've always believed that every profession is valuable, and whatever u do, u should do it 2 the best of your ability, and if u do that, you're just as good as someone employed in any other career (i.e. "all careers r equal"). but i think on the inside, i believe med is more demanding.
for the record, i think there r other really demanding jobs (single mother of 10 children, anyone?). however, i think the majority r less demanding than med.
Maybe so, but you'd have to think that the extremely stressful nature of the medical profession would have a significant influence on this. Also, due to the (unbearable at times?) stress levels, you need to have a BIG commitiment to medicine to be able to be able to treat your patients correctly - if you start not to care, and even loathe them, it could result in catastrophe....
Or at least, that's what I think in any case...
PS - It's interesting to note the reactions I got when I told some of my medicine-aspiring "friends" from school that I was reconsidering my choice of career... After the initial "OMGWTFBBQ!", they just refused to beleive that medicine could be anything but THE dream job (did I mention these guys have the box sets of House and Scrubs?) and proceeded to say that I was "soft". Maybe I should direct them to MSO where Chnaski can give them a good talking to.... B)
PPS - I think it'll be even scarier when i tell my parents ... oh well, it's my life and all that jazz, and it's not like I've ruled med out completely.
Or at least, that's what I think in any case...
PS - It's interesting to note the reactions I got when I told some of my medicine-aspiring "friends" from school that I was reconsidering my choice of career... After the initial "OMGWTFBBQ!", they just refused to beleive that medicine could be anything but THE dream job (did I mention these guys have the box sets of House and Scrubs?) and proceeded to say that I was "soft". Maybe I should direct them to MSO where Chnaski can give them a good talking to.... B)
PPS - I think it'll be even scarier when i tell my parents ... oh well, it's my life and all that jazz, and it's not like I've ruled med out completely.
I dont..burn out and/ or boredom can happen in any job...
Generic:
"get to that point where it becomes a job, where getting out of bed and going to work is just a drag,"
Your motives and reasons may not have changed (or alternatively they may) but this can occur in any profession...you don’t have to be a Dr to loathe going to work or to be still in it for the wrong reasons. Feeling trapped or unsatisfied professionally can be due to many things (just like there are many things which can keep a person in a profession they no longer enjoy).
Generic:
"get to that point where it becomes a job, where getting out of bed and going to work is just a drag,"
Your motives and reasons may not have changed (or alternatively they may) but this can occur in any profession...you don’t have to be a Dr to loathe going to work or to be still in it for the wrong reasons. Feeling trapped or unsatisfied professionally can be due to many things (just like there are many things which can keep a person in a profession they no longer enjoy).
Thanks AussieChica (and no, you don't sound condescending ). I think it's great that you've got that "battler" attitude, and certainly you have much more life experience than me (being a uni student already and all), and I wish you well for medicine. In any case, I got the book "Medicine: A Guide For Prospective Students" by Patrick Mackerras a few weeks ago, and this is one of the standout quotes for me:
At some stage in their professional lives, a lot of doctors get to that point where it becomes a job, where getting out of bed and going to work is just a drag, and the concerns of their pateints becomes an irritation. Whenever you get to that point, whether it be as an intern or someone further down the line, it's time to get help. The day you stop doing it because you care for the people you're looking after as well as for the professional and intellectual satisfaction that you might get from it, is the day that you need to have a long hard look at what you're doing.
Basically, I don't want to ever reach that stage. I mean, you hear all the stories about ******* surgeons, who couldn't care less about anyone, walk around in a haze of glory, have the personal relationship breakdowns, etc etc. In the end, I thought it might be wise to SERIOUSLY consider what I want from life. So yeah, I'll be trying to organise some work experience both at a hospital and a dental surgery to try and make up my mind......because I just don't think I'm ready to make the decision right here and now
@ NightShadow - Well, I think chinaski said one time, that the reason she keeps on going, is because of the fact that, despite all the crap, eventually the conditions will get better.
At some stage in their professional lives, a lot of doctors get to that point where it becomes a job, where getting out of bed and going to work is just a drag, and the concerns of their pateints becomes an irritation. Whenever you get to that point, whether it be as an intern or someone further down the line, it's time to get help. The day you stop doing it because you care for the people you're looking after as well as for the professional and intellectual satisfaction that you might get from it, is the day that you need to have a long hard look at what you're doing.
Basically, I don't want to ever reach that stage. I mean, you hear all the stories about ******* surgeons, who couldn't care less about anyone, walk around in a haze of glory, have the personal relationship breakdowns, etc etc. In the end, I thought it might be wise to SERIOUSLY consider what I want from life. So yeah, I'll be trying to organise some work experience both at a hospital and a dental surgery to try and make up my mind......because I just don't think I'm ready to make the decision right here and now
@ NightShadow - Well, I think chinaski said one time, that the reason she keeps on going, is because of the fact that, despite all the crap, eventually the conditions will get better.
well so far it sounds like you're using really good reasoning, i'm proud of u (hope that didn't sound condescending). it's v. mature 2 b able 2 look at your real motives for something, and then reassess, because they might not be appropriate to the reality of what u desire. i think medicine is amazing, i can read all the doom and gloom, and it just gives me that aussie battler's sense of dogged determination 2 get through it. but if u don't have that strong a desire to go through all the crap, then by all means go for another career which is still interesting, challenging, science-y, people-y, etc. but without all the downfalls of med.
in regards 2 what other ppl say: they're not the ones who r going 2 have 2 live your life, u r.
if i were u i'd spend some serious time at a hospital somehow. idk how, just get in there, get a real feel for the place. get someone 2 beat u up, lol, jk. that's way more realistic than all the tv shows u mentioned (so glad i never got into those except for house, which i got into this yr). if u can spend time there and decide u don't wanna b a dr, awesome, put all your energy into dentistry/whatever. just don't make a major life decision while you're in yr 11 lol.
in regards 2 what other ppl say: they're not the ones who r going 2 have 2 live your life, u r.
if i were u i'd spend some serious time at a hospital somehow. idk how, just get in there, get a real feel for the place. get someone 2 beat u up, lol, jk. that's way more realistic than all the tv shows u mentioned (so glad i never got into those except for house, which i got into this yr). if u can spend time there and decide u don't wanna b a dr, awesome, put all your energy into dentistry/whatever. just don't make a major life decision while you're in yr 11 lol.
Less places maybe, but lower requirements too. Also, I'd be preapred to put in the effort to get in, especially if a career in dentistry is "cushy" (ie. awesome :P ) as it sounds.
@ AussieChica - Beleive it or not, the first career I ever wanted was a scientist (when i was 8), because (i remember saying this) "they get to wear cool white coats." After some serious brainwashing during the years, my parent started preaching the virtues of medicine (most of which I ignored). Then, in Yr.10, I started watching House, Grey's, Scrubs etc and thought, "######, this could be a cool career!" I maintained this attitude until, well, until I cam here really. This site, as well as PagingDr, and visits to see doctors, has kinda made me realise that med isn't the uber career for all the smart ppl like i first thought. I also (with some help from Dr mal) realised that sometimes the most "prestigious" career isn't the best. I realised, that even if I did make it to the top as some elite neurosurgeon, making $500k, would it be worth it? would I have te TIME to spend the money? TO pursue some of my goals in life? To follow my dreams?
I realised that I wanted pretty much what any person wants from life - job stability, excellet pay, good working hours (see previous post - you get the idea) - and that Med isn't the only way to get that (*shock horror*). So yeah....
Although I haven't eliminated the possibiity of Medicine as a career completely, I think it's safe to say, if I had to choose QTAC preferences now, I'd be putting Dent at the top of the list.
@ titan - chicks may dig doctors, but good luck meeting them when you're working 50+hr weeks as a junior doctor lol, jks :P
Anyway, ALL the dental assistants I've ever seen see to be hot 20-somethings (one reason i used to love trips ot my ortho when I had braces). Yet another thing to make coming to work more appealing for dentists, i wonder? B)
@ AussieChica - Beleive it or not, the first career I ever wanted was a scientist (when i was 8), because (i remember saying this) "they get to wear cool white coats." After some serious brainwashing during the years, my parent started preaching the virtues of medicine (most of which I ignored). Then, in Yr.10, I started watching House, Grey's, Scrubs etc and thought, "######, this could be a cool career!" I maintained this attitude until, well, until I cam here really. This site, as well as PagingDr, and visits to see doctors, has kinda made me realise that med isn't the uber career for all the smart ppl like i first thought. I also (with some help from Dr mal) realised that sometimes the most "prestigious" career isn't the best. I realised, that even if I did make it to the top as some elite neurosurgeon, making $500k, would it be worth it? would I have te TIME to spend the money? TO pursue some of my goals in life? To follow my dreams?
I realised that I wanted pretty much what any person wants from life - job stability, excellet pay, good working hours (see previous post - you get the idea) - and that Med isn't the only way to get that (*shock horror*). So yeah....
Although I haven't eliminated the possibiity of Medicine as a career completely, I think it's safe to say, if I had to choose QTAC preferences now, I'd be putting Dent at the top of the list.
@ titan - chicks may dig doctors, but good luck meeting them when you're working 50+hr weeks as a junior doctor lol, jks :P
Anyway, ALL the dental assistants I've ever seen see to be hot 20-somethings (one reason i used to love trips ot my ortho when I had braces). Yet another thing to make coming to work more appealing for dentists, i wonder? B)
Because I know people who have become architects. When I was young, I dreamt of creating buildings nobody else had ever seen. But the reality of architecture is the same as the reality of any creative profession - you have to create what the market wants. I am lucky enough to have some talent with art, music, and cooking - I could pursue a career as an artist, as a painter, and as a chef if I had the appropriate training. But your survival depends on compromising your beliefs and producing what people will want to consume. Since I cannot see myself designing boring houses for a conservative marketplace I do not wish to pursue that career.
IN ANY CASE this thread is not about me. It's about what you will face when you finish your degrees and get out into the workforce.
I am quite upset to read the newspapers and read that all the brightest VCE graduates wish to pursue a career in medicine. If only they knew ...
IN ANY CASE this thread is not about me. It's about what you will face when you finish your degrees and get out into the workforce.
I am quite upset to read the newspapers and read that all the brightest VCE graduates wish to pursue a career in medicine. If only they knew ...
"extraordinary pay, nice hours, excellent employability"
if that is what you're looking for, by all means, go for dent. but just don't b too hasty in throwing out med, u've got 2 yrs to do it. but if one of your primary motivations is "looks like a good job, makes mum happy, fits into dream life scenario etc.", then yes, get out of med now.
if that is what you're looking for, by all means, go for dent. but just don't b too hasty in throwing out med, u've got 2 yrs to do it. but if one of your primary motivations is "looks like a good job, makes mum happy, fits into dream life scenario etc.", then yes, get out of med now.
Sorry I'm a bit late to this thread, but:
I have reconsidered my career path in the light on the wealth of information/advice given to me about medicine in this past year.
Having been always encouraged by my (stereotypical curry) parents to study hard in the promise of an "easy" life with a "high-paying" job in later life, I was somewhat shocked to hear all these accounts of dissatisfaction among docs. At first, I tried to block it out, but as more and more docs (on the net, and in real life) shared the view, i figured it would be wise to reconsider. I always thought at the end of Yr. 12 (or at the very lates, the end of uni) all the hard work stopped, and you could more or less "cruise" on in life...marry, buy a sweet-*** car/house, start a family, enjoy life etc. How very naive I was...
Being at an elitist private school, it's depressing to see so many hard-working, parent-obeying, naive academics say that they want to do medicine without any good reason - you know that they will eventually be dissapointed, but nothing you do or say can persuade them otherwise - it's some kind of drive implanted in their brains - get into med, make parents proud, earn money/prestige as a doctor. Once upon a time, I thought that too...
So yeah, without raving on without a point, i have reconsidered my career choice in terms of what people have said about medicine. I think i may have been able to deal with the crap hours, dodgy pay, and general bad conditions, but what pushed it over the edge for me was the lack of availability of accredited training positions. i mean, after working your sorry *** off to get into med, get through uni, and survive your intern/RMO years, do get a pat on the back, telling you "you've done well, here's something to make your life easier" (ie-a fellowship). No, you get another ~5 years of hell, but first you have to "sell your soul" to get their. I mean, W.T.F
But yeah, though I haven't ruled out med altogether, I would have to say that dentistry is beginning to look very attractive - extraordinary pay, nice hours, excellent employability (number of dentists is decreasing = ) and so on. It sounds almost too good to be true.....
But to all those doing medicine in spite of these pessimistic/gloomy comments, well I simultaneously applaud you for being determined and slap you ("WTF are you insane freaks thinking!!") :P .
I have reconsidered my career path in the light on the wealth of information/advice given to me about medicine in this past year.
Having been always encouraged by my (stereotypical curry) parents to study hard in the promise of an "easy" life with a "high-paying" job in later life, I was somewhat shocked to hear all these accounts of dissatisfaction among docs. At first, I tried to block it out, but as more and more docs (on the net, and in real life) shared the view, i figured it would be wise to reconsider. I always thought at the end of Yr. 12 (or at the very lates, the end of uni) all the hard work stopped, and you could more or less "cruise" on in life...marry, buy a sweet-*** car/house, start a family, enjoy life etc. How very naive I was...
Being at an elitist private school, it's depressing to see so many hard-working, parent-obeying, naive academics say that they want to do medicine without any good reason - you know that they will eventually be dissapointed, but nothing you do or say can persuade them otherwise - it's some kind of drive implanted in their brains - get into med, make parents proud, earn money/prestige as a doctor. Once upon a time, I thought that too...
So yeah, without raving on without a point, i have reconsidered my career choice in terms of what people have said about medicine. I think i may have been able to deal with the crap hours, dodgy pay, and general bad conditions, but what pushed it over the edge for me was the lack of availability of accredited training positions. i mean, after working your sorry *** off to get into med, get through uni, and survive your intern/RMO years, do get a pat on the back, telling you "you've done well, here's something to make your life easier" (ie-a fellowship). No, you get another ~5 years of hell, but first you have to "sell your soul" to get their. I mean, W.T.F
But yeah, though I haven't ruled out med altogether, I would have to say that dentistry is beginning to look very attractive - extraordinary pay, nice hours, excellent employability (number of dentists is decreasing = ) and so on. It sounds almost too good to be true.....
But to all those doing medicine in spite of these pessimistic/gloomy comments, well I simultaneously applaud you for being determined and slap you ("WTF are you insane freaks thinking!!") :P .
Well today at work I did a quick audit of some of the registrars. I said "if a person in year 12 asks you whether it is a good idea to pursue medicine, would you encourage or discourage them?". I asked this question to 8-9 registrars today and a couple of consultants. And a whole bunch of interns/RMO's.
In general the RMO's all said that they would answer a definite yes. One RMO said "I love it!".
The registrars either said "no" or "maybe".
The consultant said "why would anyone want to do medicine now? They must be crazy!". When I asked him why, he said that things had changed a lot from when he was an intern to now. Back then, there was less to know, so medical schools taught less theory and more practical medicine. When you graduated as an intern, you were actually capable of doing many things that 2nd or 3rd year RMO's are doing now. He said that an intern graduating in 2006 has none of the skills that we had, but instead have a lot of theoretical knowledge and a HUGE emphasis on all that touchy-feely stuff. He reckons that a 2006 intern needs 2 years of on-the-job experience before they acquire the skills that an intern in his day had.
This sort of mirrors my own experience. When I was an intern, I loved medicine and thought that I was so lucky that I had by fluke, chosen the "right" course which had put me in a rewarding career. Whenever I read about a doctor being sued, I used to feel sorry for the poor doc because surely the error may have been a misjudgement, but the decision must have been based on the best intentions.
Now that I have gotten older, I do not feel the same. I have seen SO MANY EXAMPLES of shoddy practice, poor decision making, preventable complications and preventable deaths, and iatrogenic complications that arise purely because of hospital culture (needlessly giving IV fluids for example). I now firmly believe that medicine needs to get it up the back end before doctors become motivated enough to reform our profession.
IN ANY CASE next year I won't be working regularly as a doctor any more. I will have some time to reconsider my future.
Oh, another thing - I don't mind 17 year olds, or medical students, or interns criticizing me or questioning me. Fear of authority is another really bad characteristic of doctors. So redorangish, if they want to see for themselves what medicine is like that's fine. Lots of people really enjoy it. But many others (like myself) do not. The trends and the way medicine is heading is not attractive
In general the RMO's all said that they would answer a definite yes. One RMO said "I love it!".
The registrars either said "no" or "maybe".
The consultant said "why would anyone want to do medicine now? They must be crazy!". When I asked him why, he said that things had changed a lot from when he was an intern to now. Back then, there was less to know, so medical schools taught less theory and more practical medicine. When you graduated as an intern, you were actually capable of doing many things that 2nd or 3rd year RMO's are doing now. He said that an intern graduating in 2006 has none of the skills that we had, but instead have a lot of theoretical knowledge and a HUGE emphasis on all that touchy-feely stuff. He reckons that a 2006 intern needs 2 years of on-the-job experience before they acquire the skills that an intern in his day had.
This sort of mirrors my own experience. When I was an intern, I loved medicine and thought that I was so lucky that I had by fluke, chosen the "right" course which had put me in a rewarding career. Whenever I read about a doctor being sued, I used to feel sorry for the poor doc because surely the error may have been a misjudgement, but the decision must have been based on the best intentions.
Now that I have gotten older, I do not feel the same. I have seen SO MANY EXAMPLES of shoddy practice, poor decision making, preventable complications and preventable deaths, and iatrogenic complications that arise purely because of hospital culture (needlessly giving IV fluids for example). I now firmly believe that medicine needs to get it up the back end before doctors become motivated enough to reform our profession.
IN ANY CASE next year I won't be working regularly as a doctor any more. I will have some time to reconsider my future.
Oh, another thing - I don't mind 17 year olds, or medical students, or interns criticizing me or questioning me. Fear of authority is another really bad characteristic of doctors. So redorangish, if they want to see for themselves what medicine is like that's fine. Lots of people really enjoy it. But many others (like myself) do not. The trends and the way medicine is heading is not attractive
We're not all 17 and we don’t all see the glass as half empty You can be a realist and an optimist.
Not every experience of working in Med will be universal and as such, it would be stupid of us to ruin what we see as an excellent thing based upon one testimony (although this truthful and evidenced based perspective is being echoed constantly now)...On the other hand, those who are giving us the info are where we plan to be at in a few years time and you are doing it for altruistic reasons...
This will sound pig-headed but they are our choices to make and a Med degree isn’t that wrong a move, if we believe the knowledge will be useful and the opportunities are there...MBBS graduates can go anywhere, including back to uni to do another degree if we feel it is necessary to do so...There are always other options out there?
I can’t speak for everyone in my generation but if the new IR laws are anything to go by we will all be on contracts anyway?…This brings its own job security issues but it also allows for freedom to change where we are, or barter for better conditions directly with our employer.
I hope medicine moves in a more positive direction but I won’t be waiting around for a miracle to happen if it isn’t. The progress seems to be happening very slowly; how many more young doctors suiciding will it take for change to occur? Surely one is devastating enough especially if it was preventable. Sitting back with a belief that “we suffered so you should too” doesn’t seem like the team-work camaraderie we begin Med school with…We shouldn’t become desensitised to this because we are now doctors competing for training programs.
So where will health be with a mass exodus of doctors? The gov pumps the schools with Med places while all the people who would be training us want to and are leaving…awesome
Feel free to correct me at anytime B)
EDIT: I still believe that Medicine as a career is what I want to do until my experience of working in it dictates otherwise...I know doctors who are fulfilled; although it clearly isn’t doing it for you, regardless of your love for Medicine. It seems that I have selective hearing but I'm happy to accept the risk?
Not every experience of working in Med will be universal and as such, it would be stupid of us to ruin what we see as an excellent thing based upon one testimony (although this truthful and evidenced based perspective is being echoed constantly now)...On the other hand, those who are giving us the info are where we plan to be at in a few years time and you are doing it for altruistic reasons...
This will sound pig-headed but they are our choices to make and a Med degree isn’t that wrong a move, if we believe the knowledge will be useful and the opportunities are there...MBBS graduates can go anywhere, including back to uni to do another degree if we feel it is necessary to do so...There are always other options out there?
I can’t speak for everyone in my generation but if the new IR laws are anything to go by we will all be on contracts anyway?…This brings its own job security issues but it also allows for freedom to change where we are, or barter for better conditions directly with our employer.
I hope medicine moves in a more positive direction but I won’t be waiting around for a miracle to happen if it isn’t. The progress seems to be happening very slowly; how many more young doctors suiciding will it take for change to occur? Surely one is devastating enough especially if it was preventable. Sitting back with a belief that “we suffered so you should too” doesn’t seem like the team-work camaraderie we begin Med school with…We shouldn’t become desensitised to this because we are now doctors competing for training programs.
So where will health be with a mass exodus of doctors? The gov pumps the schools with Med places while all the people who would be training us want to and are leaving…awesome
Feel free to correct me at anytime B)
EDIT: I still believe that Medicine as a career is what I want to do until my experience of working in it dictates otherwise...I know doctors who are fulfilled; although it clearly isn’t doing it for you, regardless of your love for Medicine. It seems that I have selective hearing but I'm happy to accept the risk?
All the best, Amfibius - I'm sure your background in medicine will give you an advantage in these other fields.
velox, I didn't think you were being rude. I just wanted to clarify things.
On that point though, has anyone read or heard of another person's experience in medicine and actually made the decision to pursue another career path? I'm not sure if I speak for most of us when I say that despite all of these negative aspects associated with medicine - there are still many ambitious people that are keen to take the plunge. I'm not sure how many of us are swayed by the dismal accounts. I think a healthy dose of the truth is good to maintain a realistic perspective - but is it honestly affecting the bulk of us? Personally, I think I'm too headstrong to not embrace the opportunity if I was accepted into medicine. At least that way I'd have seen it first-hand and not constantly ask "What if?" Am I deluding myself in thinking that my reasons for wanting to pursue medicine is enough? How does a 17 or 18 year old decide whether they have what it takes to find personal satisfation amongst the chaos?
velox, I didn't think you were being rude. I just wanted to clarify things.
On that point though, has anyone read or heard of another person's experience in medicine and actually made the decision to pursue another career path? I'm not sure if I speak for most of us when I say that despite all of these negative aspects associated with medicine - there are still many ambitious people that are keen to take the plunge. I'm not sure how many of us are swayed by the dismal accounts. I think a healthy dose of the truth is good to maintain a realistic perspective - but is it honestly affecting the bulk of us? Personally, I think I'm too headstrong to not embrace the opportunity if I was accepted into medicine. At least that way I'd have seen it first-hand and not constantly ask "What if?" Am I deluding myself in thinking that my reasons for wanting to pursue medicine is enough? How does a 17 or 18 year old decide whether they have what it takes to find personal satisfation amongst the chaos?
Liv, I think one of the reasons doctors can't or don't 'fight' for changes is because there's not much you can do is there? I mean, OK, so say that you get into a discussion with your superiors about fairer working hours and they disagree with you or simply dismiss your concerns. What can you do? Just stop going to work? Gather up your fellow doctors and stage a 'protest'?
Obviously, as a doctor you have enormous responsibilty to the community, I mean, you're the one who is literally 'saving lives' - if you go on protest, it's not like people are just going to conveniently stop getting sick. So you can't just up and leave. I think that's probably one of the main reasons why "seriously astute" doctors seem so masochistic sometimes
Obviously, as a doctor you have enormous responsibilty to the community, I mean, you're the one who is literally 'saving lives' - if you go on protest, it's not like people are just going to conveniently stop getting sick. So you can't just up and leave. I think that's probably one of the main reasons why "seriously astute" doctors seem so masochistic sometimes
Cheers Amfibius!
I see truth in your words and im not a doctor yet…The question is whether our lives will unfold the way yours has (and there isn’t a reason to say it wont). It is reading posts like yours (and sometimes Chinaski's) that make me think it wise to have a way out of Med, should things go awry because you feel trapped in a profession that is circling the drain (for the reasons we can cite above).
What seems surprising to me is how a bunch of seriously astute people cant seem to improve the situation...things always seem out of your hands (talking about the power struggles and not life & death which probably is out of your hands)...Doctors don’t seem the type to just accept something second rate yet we accept it for ourselves, and recreate it daily (a pattern of abuse where past mistakes aren't rectified); when better conditions, less hours, lower ratios etc aren’t fought for...Do you think this is because the situation really cant be fixed or that it would require enormous change (across the board) that will never eventuate; so you don’t see your perspective of Med changing...
I enjoy your writing style so I'd buy your book It is impressive that you can write like that after a few wines B)
I think I'll repost this when I haven’t worked >12 hours & it isn’t 2am :P It might make more sense
Would you change your mind about choosing Med as a career? Knowing what you do now? (The answer seem obvious reading between the lines but I'd appreciate an outright answer). Should we just try to be the CEO of the hospital instead
I see truth in your words and im not a doctor yet…The question is whether our lives will unfold the way yours has (and there isn’t a reason to say it wont). It is reading posts like yours (and sometimes Chinaski's) that make me think it wise to have a way out of Med, should things go awry because you feel trapped in a profession that is circling the drain (for the reasons we can cite above).
What seems surprising to me is how a bunch of seriously astute people
I enjoy your writing style so I'd buy your book It is impressive that you can write like that after a few wines B)
I think I'll repost this when I haven’t worked >12 hours & it isn’t 2am :P It might make more sense
Would you change your mind about choosing Med as a career? Knowing what you do now? (The answer seem obvious reading between the lines but I'd appreciate an outright answer). Should we just try to be the CEO of the hospital instead
Thanks, but I have no interest in starting a blog. A bit too self-indulgent.
IF the book I am writing ever comes out i'll be sure to let you people know
In any case the thread is about the future of medicine. OK to be fair it's not going to be all bad, but just look around and see how many unhappy / disillusioned doctors there are. We all start off with high ideals and want to keep our motives pure, and then we find ourselves trampled upon by petty bureaucrats who line their own nests while giving us hardly any resources to work with.
IF the book I am writing ever comes out i'll be sure to let you people know
In any case the thread is about the future of medicine. OK to be fair it's not going to be all bad, but just look around and see how many unhappy / disillusioned doctors there are. We all start off with high ideals and want to keep our motives pure, and then we find ourselves trampled upon by petty bureaucrats who line their own nests while giving us hardly any resources to work with.
Er, this was never meant to be a thread about me
trippy, I think i've probably got the wrong personality for the job. Like I indicated, in 2006 I would be eliminated in the interview process if I was honest about my motives. Although, as a smart Yr 12 kid I would have been able to tell them what they wanted to hear to make sure that I got myself in.
As for people who need my help the most - in my OWN opinion it's the people who want to be helped. Patients are not created equal. If I had a donor kidney and had to choose between someone who would comply with treatment and someone who was completely irresponsible, I would give it to the patient who would comply with treatment.
And yes there are times when I love my job. I love some of my patients and we have a great relationship. There are still a lot of people out there who respect you for giving them impartial advice. NOTHING beats the buzz of saving a life, just like nothing beats the depression of failing to prevent a preventable death. I can honestly point to many people walking around today and say that that person is walking around because of ME. Even if they don't remember my name.
I can remember many patients, long gone, whom I failed to save. There was a 21 year old who died on Jan 1, 2000. And a 35 year old girl who waved sweetly at me as she was wheeled into theatre for the very last time. Next time I saw her, she was a disembowelled empty shell with her expertly removed organs arranged neatly on the autopsy table. The pathologist was showing me an "interesting finding" in her liver. My mind was 1000 miles away. I could not help looking at my very dead patient and thinking what a lovely girl she was.
These things stay with you. Sometimes my fiancee sees me staring into space and musing about things. These are the patients I think about.
And let's be clear about this - I do not hate my job. I hate the direction the profession and health care is moving. I hate the waste, the meaningless trials, and the prostitution of medicine for commercial interests. I think it would be fair to say that I love medicine itself - it's just all the other rubbish that comes with the job that I hate.
trippy, I think i've probably got the wrong personality for the job. Like I indicated, in 2006 I would be eliminated in the interview process if I was honest about my motives. Although, as a smart Yr 12 kid I would have been able to tell them what they wanted to hear to make sure that I got myself in.
As for people who need my help the most - in my OWN opinion it's the people who want to be helped. Patients are not created equal. If I had a donor kidney and had to choose between someone who would comply with treatment and someone who was completely irresponsible, I would give it to the patient who would comply with treatment.
And yes there are times when I love my job. I love some of my patients and we have a great relationship. There are still a lot of people out there who respect you for giving them impartial advice. NOTHING beats the buzz of saving a life, just like nothing beats the depression of failing to prevent a preventable death. I can honestly point to many people walking around today and say that that person is walking around because of ME. Even if they don't remember my name.
I can remember many patients, long gone, whom I failed to save. There was a 21 year old who died on Jan 1, 2000. And a 35 year old girl who waved sweetly at me as she was wheeled into theatre for the very last time. Next time I saw her, she was a disembowelled empty shell with her expertly removed organs arranged neatly on the autopsy table. The pathologist was showing me an "interesting finding" in her liver. My mind was 1000 miles away. I could not help looking at my very dead patient and thinking what a lovely girl she was.
These things stay with you. Sometimes my fiancee sees me staring into space and musing about things. These are the patients I think about.
And let's be clear about this - I do not hate my job. I hate the direction the profession and health care is moving. I hate the waste, the meaningless trials, and the prostitution of medicine for commercial interests. I think it would be fair to say that I love medicine itself - it's just all the other rubbish that comes with the job that I hate.
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About Me
- hunterJet
- Crew member of 141 squadron at Tengah Airbase 1973~1975. Frequent Mcgregor club for billiard and Fish & Chip.