SINGAPORE - When a medical student told him that at her university in Australia, 40 of the 60 international students in her batch were Singaporeans, Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan had vowed on Facebook to "find a way to 'get our kids back' to Singapore".
"And I will," he reaffirmed yesterday, sharing with Parliament how he might go about doing so.
Singaporeans who want to study medicine overseas, a highly expensive undertaking, could one day be able to tap a Government grant.
"The restructured hospitals are studying an idea of offering a pre-employment grant to these medical students, to help them with their cost overseas, in return for a bond to serve after they graduate," said Mr Khaw.
According to the Ministry of Health (MOH), about 150 Singaporeans head overseas to study medicine every year. But from 2005 to 2009, only 110 returned after graduation, while another 130 returned after their housemanship or working a few years.
In the case of the young medical student that Mr Khaw cited, she had applied - unsuccessfully - to the NUS Yong Loo Lin School of Medicine. Determined as she was to be a doctor, and despite the strain of the more-than-$40,000 tuition fee per year, her parents supported her move to Sydney.
While Singapore will continue its "aggressive recruitment" of foreign medical graduates, Mr Khaw wrote in his Feb 9 post, locals like her who struggle financially are also on his mind for some "meaningful" help.
The proposal of a grant comes six months after Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong signalled that Singapore would continue to look at ways to expand the core pool of local doctors, even after raising the annual intake at medical schools here to 350 new doctors a year. This number would still not be enough to cope with a growing and ageing population, Mr Lee had noted.
Ms Melanie Tan, 18, now scouting for schools abroad, believes a grant would ease the financial burden of studying overseas, and even sway her mind about possibly not returning to Singapore after graduation.
But how long should the bond be? That could depend on the size of the grant offered.
Singapore Medical Association president Chong Yeh Woei, who welcomed the idea of the financial leg up, noted that five years of medical school in the United Kingdom could cost at least $500,000. Hospitals would have to work out how sizeable a grant they can afford, said chief executive of Changi General Hospital T K Udairam.
MP Lily Neo (Jalan Besar GRC) - whom Mr Khaw credited with coming up with the idea of the grant several years back - suggested the Government could take its cue from the current system where local medical students are bonded for five years after graduation. After Government subsidy, they pay roughly $80,000 in tuition fees for five years, said Dr Neo and Dr Chong.
Mr Udairam feels most students would view the bond positively in terms of an assured job after they graduate. Medical student Joel Tan, 21, agreed: "It has become increasingly hard to find internship places overseas especially in Australia, where ... priority is given to citizens and permanent residents."
Meanwhile, giving a mid-course update on MOH's $1.5-billion effort to recruit 7,700 more healthcare professionals over five years, Mr Khaw reported that since 2007, headcounts have increased by 44 per cent, There are now eight doctors instead of six per 10 beds, and 26 nurses instead of just 20 per 10 beds.
Young doctors can also look forward to better training opportunities, with $120 million to be spent on strengthening specialist training programmes over the next five years.
Another advice for those thinking of returning : it is wishful thinking if you are expecting your seniors to teach you something. They are too busy with themselves, and young docs are thrown into the deep end of the pool to sink or swim.
Furthermore, the current system provides limited placements for further training.
It's gonna take heaps more than a stupid grant attached to a bond to 'lure them home'. I feel more welcome in Aus than when I 'visit' Sgp during the summer. Both my folks are doctors in Sgp and they tell me to stay in Aus; I'm suspecting it's NOT because they hate me.
I love Sgp and I'd gladly give up my 'grant' and prospective salary for wiser allocation of healthcare funds. i.e. not a few million to the minister please!
Vote with awareness this coming elections all ye healthcare workers.
To all medical students (nurses and doctors),
do not come back to regret. Always explore overseas whether there is any option(s) remaining before coming back to Singapore.
Don't be stupid and die in Singapore.Mr Government, you are treading on trading/buying of souls here- is that the legacy of the PAP government, buying and selling souls?
If our educated have no heart to serve our countrymen, there is no point putting a bond on their souls. Resorting to gold and royalty treatment to get them back will poison their hearts further. We can't risk lives in the hands of "spoilt royalties" you know. And I certainly won't want them to treat me or my family - with no heart, they are unqualified practitioners!
I think the problems lies with you and how you have used money to motivate/buy your people - primarily your own kind.
Not a good idea to come home.
It will be a nightmarish time serving your 5 year bond? in the restructured hospitals.
And you will always play 2nd fiddle to those cheap foreign doctors.They take in a lot of PR... PAY FULL Med course fee for them, They become DOCTORS... PRs favourite PRs, Med sch in NUS have n?! % of PR's kid... so... Singaporean pay big bucks send their kid oversea to do Med, OUR excellent local kids become PR of others, contribute to others???!!! now they said short of DOCTORS??? Doctors works long hours!! Where are all those heavy funded scholars/PR? selling food in NUS?? Become chef? Merchant? PAP cannot be WRONG!!!The minister is always behind the curve, reacting only when things get blown up. It has always been known that there is a doctor shortage, and now the beds crunch. Why do we pay civil servants so much to do so little?
When is the MOH and the minister going to address the long hours put in by the doctors.
Overseas students should do a proper assessment of working conditions before they return. Many will not be able to tolerate the 30+ hours oncall.
Khaw can vow all he wants, but he's barking in the wrong direction.
The question should be, why aren't our kids in our local uni in the first place? The problem probably lies with the fact that the NUS medical school remains to be an elitist one and unnecessarily raises the entry requirements without considering other confounding factors.
I've had several friends who couldn't enter med school here, and chose to do so in the US/Australia/UK, etc. Life was extremely hard since they were not well-to-do, but that aside, they excelled tremendously! And I'm glad they chose to shun coming back here to work because they also found out that not only does the med school here to be too snooty, the work life of doctors here are too restricted and biased towards research grants.
The govt can dangle the dollar signs all they want, but it's really sad that they're really deaf frogs who have no clue about the root causes at all.If there are 2 students with equal degrees, one from the UK and another from NUS, who do u think will do extremely well in the A&E department in a hospital?
The same students take an examination. The NUS MBBS will beat the UK MBBS hands down. But, the UK student will beat the NUS MBBS hands down in the A&E department.
What is education to you? Just to collect the MBBS at your graduation or do you wanna be good? If you wanna be good, NUS is not the place for you.
I have studied in the UK and NUS and I am going to the USA.
Don't come back. Seek not what you can do for the country but what the country can do for you. This PAP gov is very irresponsible towards the people I totally agree with you GoshKosh. Why not put the money into training more medical students instead of using the money to come up with recruitment talks, exercises, campaigns etc. to draw foreign medical students back? However, if we have limited resources to train medical students, maybe MOH could propose giving scholarships for overseas Medicine and not just for nursing and allied health.
A local bond is a bond is a bond that can be broken too.Dear Mr Khaw,
Wouldn't it save everyone a lot more money if we just took in more medical students in our local institutions? Why spend a billion or billions recruiting people whom our institutions rejected in the first place?
A bond is a bond is a bond that can be broken.
Dear Mr Khaw,
I am a 3rd year medical student in Australia. Many of my pals, in fact half of the international student population in my university, are Singaporeans. It is sad that many would love to practice in Sydney instead of returning to Singapore. I hope that the grant could be implemented as soon as possible to assist us with our financial burdens and make foreign trained medical students want to return to our home country to work. Many policies are constantly being brought up, however, they do take a long time to be implemented. If this plan of giving out a grant is implemented quickly for students currently studying medicine overseas, it would be a great incentive for us to return to Singapore to work.
Dear Mr Khaw,
For God's sake, please leave these people alone. Australia offers a higher quality of life compare to the dictatorship. You want them to come back and be dogs? I am leaving to do a Ph.D. in medicine and I am not coming back to be a dog of the PAP.
Sunday, March 14, 2010
MOH mulling grants for S'porean medical students studying overseas
By Imelda Saad, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 09 March 2010 1621 hrs
SINGAPORE: Public hospitals are studying the idea of offering pre-employment grants to Singaporean medical students studying overseas, to help them with their cost, in return for a bond to serve after they graduate.
Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan revealed this in Parliament as he laid out his ministry's priorities for the year.
19-year-old Singaporean, Evetor Sim, recently graduated from an international school in China. In September, she will head to the University of Manchester to study medicine. Her parents are forking out some $300,000 in tuition fees.
A grant, she said, will help ease the financial burden, but the concern is the bond that may be tied to this grant.
She said: "I would definitely take into serious consideration the grant because doing a medical degree overseas is very expensive and the living expenses also are very expensive. I think the only thing that holds me back from signing on for this scheme is the inflexibility of having to return back after your studies and having to serve your bond with the government hospitals."
Locally-trained doctors, who receive subsidies in the medical school, are already bonded to work at public hospitals for up to five years after graduation.
NUS medical students are bonded for five years. Duke-NUS Graduate medical students who are Singaporeans are bonded for four years, while PRs and international students are bonded five years.
The Singapore Medical Association says bringing in locals trained overseas will plug the gap to meet demand for doctors in the years ahead.
Dr Chong Yeh Woei, president of Singapore Medical Association, said: "I think with the shortage of doctors, the most important thing is we can bring in foreign doctors but I believe our local patients would still want locally-trained doctors or local doctors to treat them. I think this is because of the cultural context and the languages that we speak."
The proposal to get more local doctors is part of the government's plan for healthcare as Singaporeans grow older and live longer.
There will be greater emphasis on geriatric as well as mental health, with S$120 million set aside to strengthen specialist training over the next five years.
Another S$57 million will go into enhancing follow-up care for mental health patients.
Mr Khaw said: "Our follow-up care is getting better but we know there are still gaps. MPs' comments earlier confirm this. I am therefore adding a further $57m for mental health initiatives, on top of the $123m already committed. This is a significant $180m commitment to enhancing our mental health programme.
"Part of the new budget will be used to increase psychiatric nursing manpower. Another will go towards setting up a long term monitoring and risk assessment system. It will help identify and provide support for patients who default follow-up appointments for treatment, thereby reducing the number who relapse because they do not take their medication."
Responding to concerns that the increase in foreign worker levies will hit nursing homes, Mr Khaw said his ministry will raise the subsidies for such homes by about 7 percent to help them cope with the higher cost of operations.
Other healthcare initiatives include plans for three new nursing homes and rebuilding three old ones in larger facilities in better locations within HDB towns.
The minister described the restructuring of the healthcare system in Singapore as a quiet revolution. He said if done well, results will show in 10 years. The key is to avoid unnecessary hospitalisation, have better integration between hospitals and community partners as well as help patients achieve successful aging at home.
CSP = Commonwealth Supported Place. Most of the local students have CSPs, which means that they get discounted fees and priority for internships. The rest of the local students are full fee-paying, and their fees are almost as high as ours
NSW's IMET (institute of medical education/training) just put out the information for how they'll allocate internship places in the near future. Starting in 2011, the international student disadvantage will become less of a disadvantage. Here's a quick summary:
1. Local CSP students will be guaranteed an internship.
2. After all of the CSP students get their internships, there will be no preference given to domestic students. All applications will be judged on merit.
That means that international students are no longer "last-priority" for internships. Sure, it's still not guaranteed, but now we know that we'll at least be competing with the local students instead of just being shuffled to the back of the line.
Also, ANU grads (100 people) will no longer be included in the NSW internship pool, so that lessens the blow of the new graduating class from UoW (I think that's less than 100 people).
Most of the local students have a CSP spot, so this isn't a night-and-day difference... but it does significantly increase our chances of getting an internship. Instead of being at the bottom of the list and fighting for a place with other international students, we'll be competing with the domestic students who were at the bottom of the admissions list.
NSW's IMET (institute of medical education/training) just put out the information for how they'll allocate internship places in the near future. Starting in 2011, the international student disadvantage will become less of a disadvantage. Here's a quick summary:
1. Local CSP students will be guaranteed an internship.
2. After all of the CSP students get their internships, there will be no preference given to domestic students. All applications will be judged on merit.
That means that international students are no longer "last-priority" for internships. Sure, it's still not guaranteed, but now we know that we'll at least be competing with the local students instead of just being shuffled to the back of the line.
Also, ANU grads (100 people) will no longer be included in the NSW internship pool, so that lessens the blow of the new graduating class from UoW (I think that's less than 100 people).
Most of the local students have a CSP spot, so this isn't a night-and-day difference... but it does significantly increase our chances of getting an internship. Instead of being at the bottom of the list and fighting for a place with other international students, we'll be competing with the domestic students who were at the bottom of the admissions list.
By the way I talked to the admission dean at University of Sydney. She said that currently, there is no problem for international students getting internships but in four years, they do expect having difficulty to place international students (IMG + international students trained for MBBS in Aussie) for internship or residency in Australia in general, including rural areas. That's discouraging, but c'est la vie, like the French said.
Originally Posted by Dr.Millisevert
That is correct. You can also go to the US/Canada/UK, etc. You just have to complete the same internship paperwork and prove that you have completed the same runs/attachments and have completed the same goals and objectives for each attachment. (ie. that your internship is equivalent to an Australian one)
I just read that UK put a restriction on international medical graduates and international students studying in UK to come to / stay in UK as a doctor in training. The restriction came in force in February 2008, so I think it will be very hard, if not impossible, to get internship in UK?
Originally Posted by Dr.Millisevert
That is correct. You can also go to the US/Canada/UK, etc. You just have to complete the same internship paperwork and prove that you have completed the same runs/attachments and have completed the same goals and objectives for each attachment. (ie. that your internship is equivalent to an Australian one)
I just read that UK put a restriction on international medical graduates and international students studying in UK to come to / stay in UK as a doctor in training. The restriction came in force in February 2008, so I think it will be very hard, if not impossible, to get internship in UK?
I heard that due to the increasing number of medical graduates, they (Australian schools) could not guarantee internship posts for international students. On the other hand, internship is compulsory for medical registration- so how is this going to be?
Or can we do internship outside Australia? For example, after graduating with MBBS from Aussie, then we do one year internship in Singapore, then go back to Aussie to continue residency/specialist training? If so, what countries are the options to do internship
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Briefly yes it's possible.
The AMC recognises internships from Malaysia, Singapore and New Zealand. There may be other recognised countries but those are the three that are considered equivalent to Australian internship.
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Also I think you can go rural, can't you? From what I've heard there will be a lot of spots open in rural areas?
Or can we do internship outside Australia? For example, after graduating with MBBS from Aussie, then we do one year internship in Singapore, then go back to Aussie to continue residency/specialist training? If so, what countries are the options to do internship
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Briefly yes it's possible.
The AMC recognises internships from Malaysia, Singapore and New Zealand. There may be other recognised countries but those are the three that are considered equivalent to Australian internship.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also I think you can go rural, can't you? From what I've heard there will be a lot of spots open in rural areas?
ISAT Scores for Critical Reasoning (CR), Quantitative Reasoning (QR) and Overall Reasoning (OR) are scaled in the range of 100-200.
ISAT scores are comparable between different versions of the test.
Percentiles (%ILE) show the percentage of candidates whose scores are lower than the reported ISAT score.
Critical Reasoning Quantitative Reasoning Overall Reasoning
SCORE %ILE SCORE %ILE SCORE %ILE
178 81 185 91 182 89
Typical skills measured by ISAT:
Critical Reasoning
Analyse information to determine the key claims or issues.
Draw approppriate inferences and recognise main implications.
Relate claims or information beyond the immediate context.
Evaluate the significance and credibility of claims or information.
Quantitative Reasoning
Analyse and categorise material to identify key information, and comprehend and summarise relationships.
Make inferences and decisions based on evidence.
Transform, reorganise, synthesise and apply information as appropriate for problems and decision making situations.
Conceptualise a strategy to solve problems or identify solutions.
Overall Reasoning
Comprehend, analyse and apply information, transforming it as appropriate.
Evaluate information, evidence and claims.
Draw appropriate inferences and make reasoned decisions.
Generate and evaluate solutions to problems.
ISAT scores are comparable between different versions of the test.
Percentiles (%ILE) show the percentage of candidates whose scores are lower than the reported ISAT score.
Critical Reasoning Quantitative Reasoning Overall Reasoning
SCORE %ILE SCORE %ILE SCORE %ILE
178 81 185 91 182 89
Typical skills measured by ISAT:
Critical Reasoning
Analyse information to determine the key claims or issues.
Draw approppriate inferences and recognise main implications.
Relate claims or information beyond the immediate context.
Evaluate the significance and credibility of claims or information.
Quantitative Reasoning
Analyse and categorise material to identify key information, and comprehend and summarise relationships.
Make inferences and decisions based on evidence.
Transform, reorganise, synthesise and apply information as appropriate for problems and decision making situations.
Conceptualise a strategy to solve problems or identify solutions.
Overall Reasoning
Comprehend, analyse and apply information, transforming it as appropriate.
Evaluate information, evidence and claims.
Draw appropriate inferences and make reasoned decisions.
Generate and evaluate solutions to problems.
OMFG I've been notified of an early decision interview in May for Flinders University by Dr. Tony Edwards!!!
I've never even got an interview for the US meds; having been offered an interview put a smile on my face. Makes me feel like I'm not such a failure after all. I've been feeling that way ever since every single US medical school rejected me without even an interview offer. But now I actually have something to hope for!
But... now what? I've got an interview, but how do I prepare for it? Getting an interview is only half the battle. It would suck if I underestimated the interviews and didn't get in because of that =/. Hmm... I know there are some threads on the paging dr. boards with past interview questions, I think I'll start with that
I've never even got an interview for the US meds; having been offered an interview put a smile on my face. Makes me feel like I'm not such a failure after all. I've been feeling that way ever since every single US medical school rejected me without even an interview offer. But now I actually have something to hope for!
But... now what? I've got an interview, but how do I prepare for it? Getting an interview is only half the battle. It would suck if I underestimated the interviews and didn't get in because of that =/. Hmm... I know there are some threads on the paging dr. boards with past interview questions, I think I'll start with that
Yep, I was in a hurry and wrote CSP instead of MRBS.
Im not the army type, but seriously, if you need the money, then join the army after the first year. You get over 30k per annum, subsidised rent and food and no hecs debt for the remainder of the degree, and then you owe them the number of years they paid you during your degree (3, generally) after graduation. (This is opposed to the deal where you sign up as soon as you get your offer, which sees you getting paid heaps more, but then you owe them 6-8 years of service.) Sure, you may wind up being a glorified pecker-checker for a good portion of that, but I have also spoken to doctors who recieved the most amazing access to speciality training of their choice through the armed forces.
And JJJJ, if your young and know for certain that you want to go into rural practice in certain specialities, then the MRBS can be OK, but for those of us who are older and have small children, it is a big gamble, you just dont know where you are going to be. What if I want to go overseas? What if my kids want to be somewhere that I couldnt be? What if I fell in love with a speciality that couldnt be supported by the right area, or what if some other offer came up that I couldnt take? Even though I want to go into rural practice, and have strong feelings about it, I also have my partner to consider, and he may not be so chuffed with me effectively signing his life away along with mine.
Also, I have been on the recieving end of supposedly attractive government funding that turned out be effectively a deferred screw job, so, once bitten and all that.
I would just suggest that any applicant who is interested actually get the information thats available and look through things like the approximated time-line of an MRBS, and for the love of all thats good, when they say that they reccomend that all applicants get a lawyer to read it and advise them, take that advice!!!
Im not the army type, but seriously, if you need the money, then join the army after the first year. You get over 30k per annum, subsidised rent and food and no hecs debt for the remainder of the degree, and then you owe them the number of years they paid you during your degree (3, generally) after graduation. (This is opposed to the deal where you sign up as soon as you get your offer, which sees you getting paid heaps more, but then you owe them 6-8 years of service.) Sure, you may wind up being a glorified pecker-checker for a good portion of that, but I have also spoken to doctors who recieved the most amazing access to speciality training of their choice through the armed forces.
And JJJJ, if your young and know for certain that you want to go into rural practice in certain specialities, then the MRBS can be OK, but for those of us who are older and have small children, it is a big gamble, you just dont know where you are going to be. What if I want to go overseas? What if my kids want to be somewhere that I couldnt be? What if I fell in love with a speciality that couldnt be supported by the right area, or what if some other offer came up that I couldnt take? Even though I want to go into rural practice, and have strong feelings about it, I also have my partner to consider, and he may not be so chuffed with me effectively signing his life away along with mine.
Also, I have been on the recieving end of supposedly attractive government funding that turned out be effectively a deferred screw job, so, once bitten and all that.
I would just suggest that any applicant who is interested actually get the information thats available and look through things like the approximated time-line of an MRBS, and for the love of all thats good, when they say that they reccomend that all applicants get a lawyer to read it and advise them, take that advice!!!
ing this message because it makes a very valuable point. I did not apply for a MRBS when I was looking into med school entry, because of this very issue. At the time, I was single and free to do what I wished with my life. Now, as a trainee, I am five years into a relationship with a guy who professionally couldn't re-locate to a rural area (and indeed, I don't think he'd want to, either). Being unable to look into the future makes it hard to sign on the dotted line for a lot of people – young and old alike.
Leka, given that BMPs are reasonably new to the Australian system, it's difficult to make a judgement based on the experience of others at this point. We are yet to see the repercussions of bonded scholarships within the workforce itself (we're only just seeing the effect of the rural bonded scholarships, which were first phased in around 2001), so there's still a lot to come out in the wash at this point
am glad to read this thread!
I actually placed BMP as my first preference. I think: i didn't get into medicine to be comfortable, to just 'get by' or to climb the heirachy or anything like that. I want to contribute to the crisis out there! I am proud of you BMP-holders! Let's make the most of this opportunity, make connections, attend conferences and get as much experience/ perspective about how to help those who are less fortunate (accessibility wise). I wish you all the best of luck
I actually placed BMP as my first preference. I think: i didn't get into medicine to be comfortable, to just 'get by' or to climb the heirachy or anything like that. I want to contribute to the crisis out there! I am proud of you BMP-holders! Let's make the most of this opportunity, make connections, attend conferences and get as much experience/ perspective about how to help those who are less fortunate (accessibility wise). I wish you all the best of luck
If you're applying through oztrekk or australearn you may not have to go via THx – I just had to print my MCAT scores off from the website and send them. I found that I got a bit of leeway having MCAT scores from a couple of months over the two year deadline, but you should check with each school. Also, if you're in Australia you may want to consider taking the GAMSAT instead of the MCAT – see the GAMSAT boards on this site for more info.
The ACER application is worth taking a look at, but you should be aware that some schools you can apply to independantly (in addition to the ACER applications), particularly if you're an international student.
If you're just beginning your undergraduate degree, have you considered applying for permanent residency status? If it's an option to you I'd give it a go – the competition within the international student body is still considerable, and it's much less expensive if you're an Australian resident. Some food for thought, anyways.
The ACER application is worth taking a look at, but you should be aware that some schools you can apply to independantly (in addition to the ACER applications), particularly if you're an international student.
If you're just beginning your undergraduate degree, have you considered applying for permanent residency status? If it's an option to you I'd give it a go – the competition within the international student body is still considerable, and it's much less expensive if you're an Australian resident. Some food for thought, anyways.
Very recently my brother's friends' friends were applying for GP training/fellowship (I dont know the exact term) in an urban area, were rejected on the basis that they were not Australian citizen nor permanent residence when they applied and entered Australian Med schools. (They were Kiwis)
The legislation involved is Section 19 AB of Health Insurance Act 1979.
They were rejected because they were not allowed to provide 'medical benefits' (Medicare) for at least 10 years under the Law. Thus making them 'unattractive' to hospitals, public and private and the only way to do anything is to go to 'areas of needs'. This does not apply to internship training because you are not registered as a 'medical practitioner' yet.
My question is that do the medical school tell you that sort of things before you apply? Because even though international students are paying full fee, they still have to do 10 years of practice in an 'area of need' and almost make it impossible for them to specialize.
I also noticed how 'specific' the UQ online interview offer thing was, the part where they want you to declare yourself as a permanent resident, visa holder, Aus citizen etc.
The legislation involved is Section 19 AB of Health Insurance Act 1979.
They were rejected because they were not allowed to provide 'medical benefits' (Medicare) for at least 10 years under the Law. Thus making them 'unattractive' to hospitals, public and private and the only way to do anything is to go to 'areas of needs'. This does not apply to internship training because you are not registered as a 'medical practitioner' yet.
My question is that do the medical school tell you that sort of things before you apply? Because even though international students are paying full fee, they still have to do 10 years of practice in an 'area of need' and almost make it impossible for them to specialize.
I also noticed how 'specific' the UQ online interview offer thing was, the part where they want you to declare yourself as a permanent resident, visa holder, Aus citizen etc.
I just wanted to add this bit of advice to international students planning on studying med in Australia —-
Don't wait until after you get your offer letter to start thinking about the visa application process. Phone your nearest Australian Consulate and find out what you will need to get your student visa.
I used to work in an International Admissions section and did my little bit to help bring International students in to do the MBBS program one year, and getting visas on time is an important issue.
Usually, especially for countries like the USA and Canada, applying for a visa is straight forward and only takes (I think) a couple of weeks.
However, there has been the odd occasion where the health checks or some other aspect of the application procedure has taken longer than expected and students arrived in Australia with no time to settle in, or even a few days late for the course to begin. Not ideal as the MBBS is pretty full on from day one.
With offers going out at the end of the year and the MBBS program starting in January, there is a relatively small window for getting your visa organized. As I said, usually there is little problem, but sometimes there are one or two students for whom there are unexpected difficulties.
Visas cannot be processed without an official Offer Letter from a university, but you may be able to get a head start on getting your health check, or some other requirement, organized. If something comes up on your health check, you may be able to get advice from the consulate on whether it might delay your visa processing.
Don't wait until after you get your offer letter to start thinking about the visa application process. Phone your nearest Australian Consulate and find out what you will need to get your student visa.
I used to work in an International Admissions section and did my little bit to help bring International students in to do the MBBS program one year, and getting visas on time is an important issue.
Usually, especially for countries like the USA and Canada, applying for a visa is straight forward and only takes (I think) a couple of weeks.
However, there has been the odd occasion where the health checks or some other aspect of the application procedure has taken longer than expected and students arrived in Australia with no time to settle in, or even a few days late for the course to begin. Not ideal as the MBBS is pretty full on from day one.
With offers going out at the end of the year and the MBBS program starting in January, there is a relatively small window for getting your visa organized. As I said, usually there is little problem, but sometimes there are one or two students for whom there are unexpected difficulties.
Visas cannot be processed without an official Offer Letter from a university, but you may be able to get a head start on getting your health check, or some other requirement, organized. If something comes up on your health check, you may be able to get advice from the consulate on whether it might delay your visa processing.
don't know of any international USyd (medicine) students getting offers yet. So just hang in there a while longer! According to the website, local students were meant to receive their offers in November. Perhaps they did a lil switch. Places also open up later in the admissions process due to students rejecting offers, deferring, etc.
I too thought the international places for Monash would be released sooner than the local places. But it turned out to be just the opposite. The wait can be pretty horrific, but try to occupy yourself with work or activities while waiting for offers to come out. What I did was call Monash nearly incessantly every week. Helped the nerves a bit, but I think it didn't help the administrative process much.
Perhaps the pragmatic approach might be best and just plan for both outcomes, though I really do wish you the best of luck. Hope you get it! =)
I too thought the international places for Monash would be released sooner than the local places. But it turned out to be just the opposite. The wait can be pretty horrific, but try to occupy yourself with work or activities while waiting for offers to come out. What I did was call Monash nearly incessantly every week. Helped the nerves a bit, but I think it didn't help the administrative process much.
Perhaps the pragmatic approach might be best and just plan for both outcomes, though I really do wish you the best of luck. Hope you get it! =)
Yes but the difference is Australian citizens will at least be on equal footing when it comes to internship allocations and have a chance of an internship spot. Internationals on the other hand come third in priority and are allocated last. I'm not saying don't come, I just want to make sure everyone is well aware of the situation as about half the internationals in my year didn't know before coming.
That may be true for now, but who knows what will happen four years down the road! All we can do is try our best with the options we have today and cross our fingers. I'm incredibly excited to study at Sydney next year, and I'm not making any plans for residency just yet. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
currently every international student I know of in Australia that will be graduating this year from an Australian university has secured an internship spot inside Australia some in competitive places such as Melbourne and Brisbane (I do not know which hospitals)
However, four years from now, if things remain the same there might not be enough internship spots for Australian citizens, never mind the international students.
However, four years from now, if things remain the same there might not be enough internship spots for Australian citizens, never mind the international students.
For all internationals coming over, its important to keep in mind that unless something changes there are no internship positions available in Australia. With all the extra graduates in the coming years and internationals only being offered internship positions left over after domestic students have all be allocated the chances of getting an internship spot in Australia is very slim to none.
Saturday, March 13, 2010
By the first post, are you referring to the first post of this thread? If so, I would suggest that you require some perspective before you go dumping on the opinion of somebody already in the field. I don't think you can fully appreciate or understand how rotten the system is until you work in it. As to how you (or anyone else) will react to working in it, you don't know that until you try. Much easier to look in and criticise as an outsider, IMO.
Some thoughts on your post:
1) Problem is, society DOES expect doctors to be superhuman. The prestige of the job has been chipped away, so you're not treated like a god, but you are still expected to act like one, and be above human traits. That, even for those of us who sneer at all things "prestige", gets a bit hard to take, day in, day out.
2) As somebody who personally cares very little about money and material gains, I've got to say, I have become MORE interested in money as my working environment has deteriorated. Why? Simply put, there has to be some return for being screwed. It's funny - you start trying to put a price on what your sacrifice and stress is worth - because essentially, it's the only compensation that is offered to you. Nobody's offering better working conditions or a better healthcare system - it's money or nothing. It just becomes the commodity that you trade in. It becomes really easy (and enticing) to look outside of medicine, and see jobs you could easily do, that pay triple what you make now, for half the work. Once the "honour" and "privilege" of being a doctor is totally wrung out through years of systematic abuse, it's very seductive to look elsewhere and think "why not?".
Some thoughts on your post:
1) Problem is, society DOES expect doctors to be superhuman. The prestige of the job has been chipped away, so you're not treated like a god, but you are still expected to act like one, and be above human traits. That, even for those of us who sneer at all things "prestige", gets a bit hard to take, day in, day out.
2) As somebody who personally cares very little about money and material gains, I've got to say, I have become MORE interested in money as my working environment has deteriorated. Why? Simply put, there has to be some return for being screwed. It's funny - you start trying to put a price on what your sacrifice and stress is worth - because essentially, it's the only compensation that is offered to you. Nobody's offering better working conditions or a better healthcare system - it's money or nothing. It just becomes the commodity that you trade in. It becomes really easy (and enticing) to look outside of medicine, and see jobs you could easily do, that pay triple what you make now, for half the work. Once the "honour" and "privilege" of being a doctor is totally wrung out through years of systematic abuse, it's very seductive to look elsewhere and think "why not?".
In my view, the first post is immature and unrealistic.
Being a doctor is a job. It is not like turning into some righteous higher powered being, you are not a godsend. As such, you should not be expected to act like one. We are all human.
Money drives us. Power drives us. Fame drives us. Those that deny this are either not human, or are lying. Some are more idealistic, some aren't. These are human traits and this explains the actions most doctors take, and nothing has changed. It was like this before, and it will always be like this. If you were immature enough to think otherwise before you got into medicine, you have yourself to blame. Stop living in fantasy land, this is how things are, and things aren't going to change. I can see the frustration, but what it comes down to, is what you will do. If you care that much about patients and that little about money, continue to work hard, continue to accept smaller payments, why go to another career when medicine will let you help people more? I mean, money doesn't come into this does it? There really is no need for a reward... right?
Not such a purist now, are we?
Being a doctor is a job. It is not like turning into some righteous higher powered being, you are not a godsend. As such, you should not be expected to act like one. We are all human.
Money drives us. Power drives us. Fame drives us. Those that deny this are either not human, or are lying. Some are more idealistic, some aren't. These are human traits and this explains the actions most doctors take, and nothing has changed. It was like this before, and it will always be like this. If you were immature enough to think otherwise before you got into medicine, you have yourself to blame. Stop living in fantasy land, this is how things are, and things aren't going to change. I can see the frustration, but what it comes down to, is what you will do. If you care that much about patients and that little about money, continue to work hard, continue to accept smaller payments, why go to another career when medicine will let you help people more? I mean, money doesn't come into this does it? There really is no need for a reward... right?
Not such a purist now, are we?
Writing stories about doctor shortages and the rate of professional burn out within doctor ranks simply doesn't sell. The public would far rather read about dodgy doctors making mistakes, and greedy doctors who want more money to add to the piles they have already - it's heaps more fun to cut down (seemingly) tall poppies than face up to reality. In short, the public don't really care if doctors are worked to the bone.
It seems to me that the posters on this thread have either not experienced a career/full time employment or went straight from school to med. I say this because EVERY career/place of employment is totally dominated by bull***t politics. That's life - get used to it. The sooner you accept it, the easier it becomes.
I am leaving my (well paid) IT career of 8 years to hopefully start med next year. Why, because IT is full of bull***t politics and is run by bureaucratic Accountants/CEOs/CFOs etc who have no IT knowledge whatsoever. Sound familiar?????
Breathe easy Boys & Girls. Don't let office politics scare you from following your dreams.... even flipping burgers has it share of egos and McManager power trips, so you might as well enjoy what you do. Right?
I am leaving my (well paid) IT career of 8 years to hopefully start med next year. Why, because IT is full of bull***t politics and is run by bureaucratic Accountants/CEOs/CFOs etc who have no IT knowledge whatsoever. Sound familiar?????
Breathe easy Boys & Girls. Don't let office politics scare you from following your dreams.... even flipping burgers has it share of egos and McManager power trips, so you might as well enjoy what you do. Right?
Dear Medicine,
Although I dislike your training practices very much, I would like to thank you for the strong work ethic that you have taught me. Many countless hours studying for your shelf exams and Steps taught me valuable time management skills that I use to be successful today. Seeing many overworked physicians who were unhappy and complaining about their paycheck made me desire something more. Had I not seen the light because of you, I might have been just another pawn in a never- ending game.
It was worth the months on surgery and OB/GYN. Every prostate that I examined made me want something better out of life. I am thankful that you gave me the adequate number of prostates to examine. Each pelvic exam, while oftentimes smelly and always unpleasant, taught me that I must persevere.
Every attending surgeon that ever belittled me during rounds or in the OR gave me a thick skin. I have used that thick skin while failing numerous times on my way to victory. Each case I scrubbed helped to build my foundation of freedom.
The long nights on call taught me that I’m not that efficient while sleep deprived. Now, I always work well-rested. Thank you medicine, I’ve increased my productivity because of you.
I now work smarter instead of harder, and it’s because of you. You have given me so much — the drive and desire to not be unhappy with life. The drive and desire to do something I am passionate about. The drive and desire to finally be free.
Thank you, Medicine, for four years of hell. Had it not been for those four years, I might have spent a lifetime consumed by fire.
Although I dislike your training practices very much, I would like to thank you for the strong work ethic that you have taught me. Many countless hours studying for your shelf exams and Steps taught me valuable time management skills that I use to be successful today. Seeing many overworked physicians who were unhappy and complaining about their paycheck made me desire something more. Had I not seen the light because of you, I might have been just another pawn in a never- ending game.
It was worth the months on surgery and OB/GYN. Every prostate that I examined made me want something better out of life. I am thankful that you gave me the adequate number of prostates to examine. Each pelvic exam, while oftentimes smelly and always unpleasant, taught me that I must persevere.
Every attending surgeon that ever belittled me during rounds or in the OR gave me a thick skin. I have used that thick skin while failing numerous times on my way to victory. Each case I scrubbed helped to build my foundation of freedom.
The long nights on call taught me that I’m not that efficient while sleep deprived. Now, I always work well-rested. Thank you medicine, I’ve increased my productivity because of you.
I now work smarter instead of harder, and it’s because of you. You have given me so much — the drive and desire to not be unhappy with life. The drive and desire to do something I am passionate about. The drive and desire to finally be free.
Thank you, Medicine, for four years of hell. Had it not been for those four years, I might have spent a lifetime consumed by fire.
think the main reason why people get so disillusioned with med is because they started out with slightly inflated expectations ofhow amazing it was going to be. I know it's gonna be a slog, but i wouldn't have it any other way.
Sure if i don't ass kiss, it'll take me longer to get where i want to be, and my opportunities maybe limited if i don't play the game
But it's MY career choice and i wouldn't have it any other way
I know this is really easy for me to say now, but i feel i won't develop the gradual hard exterior because i know that this career tests you beyond any other reasonable measure. I coud have accepted my place in business law, but i decided that i want to persue something i really wanted, and i'll work long and hard for it.
Playing the game is necessary at times, but i'm of the belief if i can work hard and be one of the best, then i can get to where i want to be. Unrealistic perceptions or not from consultants, or patients, if i know i do a good enough job, i'll be more than content to go to work everyday. That's just me though
Sure if i don't ass kiss, it'll take me longer to get where i want to be, and my opportunities maybe limited if i don't play the game
But it's MY career choice and i wouldn't have it any other way
I know this is really easy for me to say now, but i feel i won't develop the gradual hard exterior because i know that this career tests you beyond any other reasonable measure. I coud have accepted my place in business law, but i decided that i want to persue something i really wanted, and i'll work long and hard for it.
Playing the game is necessary at times, but i'm of the belief if i can work hard and be one of the best, then i can get to where i want to be. Unrealistic perceptions or not from consultants, or patients, if i know i do a good enough job, i'll be more than content to go to work everyday. That's just me though
Why is there so much bureaucracy in medicine?
Why do doctors have so little rights?
Why is medicine the only profession that allows itself to be controlled and bonded by the government?
Why are greedy, monopolistic colleges still in charge of future postgraduate training?
Why is medicine so hierarchal and less collaborative?
What happens when the medical student tsunami finally happens?
I would suggest you guys read this blog:
http://www.medschoolhell.com
Although he is American, alot of what he says is universal for all medical students and graduates.
Why do doctors have so little rights?
Why is medicine the only profession that allows itself to be controlled and bonded by the government?
Why are greedy, monopolistic colleges still in charge of future postgraduate training?
Why is medicine so hierarchal and less collaborative?
What happens when the medical student tsunami finally happens?
I would suggest you guys read this blog:
http://www.medschoolhell.com
Although he is American, alot of what he says is universal for all medical students and graduates.
This thread has made me wish I get into law! Just to increase options. I'm not so sure. I've heard some very senior lawyers who sort of have the same thing: frustration with the courts, anger that their dreams of litigation turned into paper mountains etcetc. Is this a symptom of medicine or is it a symptom of society in general?
Obviously the problems facing medicine are different to other professions, but are they worse?
Obviously the problems facing medicine are different to other professions, but are they worse?
I have a strange feeling that resurrection this thread will stir up some debate.
I think Medicine is a like a spouse. Every now and then u have fight/bad moments (think: exams, consultants/reg hating u.. ) and you have to take out the trash. It' moments like that which I want to divorce it and run off with (in my case) the girl in my mind that is a playboy playmate (think: commercial airline pilot).
But after the cloud has clear I feel better about it. I realised some times its good (when the patients recover and thank us) and some times they are bad (when the patients want to kill me with a bedpan). Frankly I think im keeping in this for the sake of going to the end cos i dun mind it.. and making a decision there. At the end of the day, I will either be a happy consultant.. or a man with a mid life crisis, a 18 yr old gf and a new job as a plumber. .... Kinda like getting married (or civil service for those inclined).
I think Medicine is a like a spouse. Every now and then u have fight/bad moments (think: exams, consultants/reg hating u.. ) and you have to take out the trash. It' moments like that which I want to divorce it and run off with (in my case) the girl in my mind that is a playboy playmate (think: commercial airline pilot).
But after the cloud has clear I feel better about it. I realised some times its good (when the patients recover and thank us) and some times they are bad (when the patients want to kill me with a bedpan). Frankly I think im keeping in this for the sake of going to the end cos i dun mind it.. and making a decision there. At the end of the day, I will either be a happy consultant.. or a man with a mid life crisis, a 18 yr old gf and a new job as a plumber. .... Kinda like getting married (or civil service for those inclined).
What perfect timing to kick up this old article.
Being exams and all I guess makes us hate med even more right now.
When I was reading this article last yr, I knew I had began losing my real passion for it. At this stage of my life, I must say I'm still so interested by medicine and what it has to offer, yet at the same time tired. Just tired in general, tired of study, tired of filling my time off with part time work, tired of sucking up to consultants and registrars etc only for them to hate you for the tiniest of things, and tired of their unrealistic expectations.
Theres so many things I love doing, and like a little child I don't like to think of the hard work required. I want to photograph, I want to travel, I want to live life doing work that's fun and meeting people and gaining worldly experiences.
But still I want to finish med, because I started, and because all in all as far as work goes, it's a decent job.
One interesting thing though, I read somewhere that Gen X's change career paths about 3-4 times in their life, while gen Y's (us i guess) will change 6+. Now in the old days when Anaesthetists became GP's, and that kind of switching would that be considered a career change? Or is it more like my pipe dream of becoming a commercial airline pilot?
Being exams and all I guess makes us hate med even more right now.
When I was reading this article last yr, I knew I had began losing my real passion for it. At this stage of my life, I must say I'm still so interested by medicine and what it has to offer, yet at the same time tired. Just tired in general, tired of study, tired of filling my time off with part time work, tired of sucking up to consultants and registrars etc only for them to hate you for the tiniest of things, and tired of their unrealistic expectations.
Theres so many things I love doing, and like a little child I don't like to think of the hard work required. I want to photograph, I want to travel, I want to live life doing work that's fun and meeting people and gaining worldly experiences.
But still I want to finish med, because I started, and because all in all as far as work goes, it's a decent job.
One interesting thing though, I read somewhere that Gen X's change career paths about 3-4 times in their life, while gen Y's (us i guess) will change 6+. Now in the old days when Anaesthetists became GP's, and that kind of switching would that be considered a career change? Or is it more like my pipe dream of becoming a commercial airline pilot?
all I meant...not trying to make a distinction as to which job is the most demanding or has the most possibility for catastrophe...pilots, flight controllers, defence ministers, politicians, judges...they also can directly impact many lives...any health care worker who has gone off the rails could potentially kill a patient (a Physio with an incorrect spinal manipulation, a nurse with an incorrect drug dose, a pharmacist giving the wrong drug...). Doctors aren’t always in life or death situations with their patients.
That said, I didn’t disagree with the majority of the quote being specific to Med...many other professions don’t have patients they can harm...a teacher skipping some questions or a lawyer making an incorrect plea wont kill anyone (in Aus anyway). If you arent in it for the patients then you shouldnt be in Med...
I second that AussieChica...L337: the advice of others isn’t always the best for you
That said, I didn’t disagree with the majority of the quote being specific to Med...many other professions don’t have patients they can harm...a teacher skipping some questions or a lawyer making an incorrect plea wont kill anyone (in Aus anyway). If you arent in it for the patients then you shouldnt be in Med...
I second that AussieChica...L337: the advice of others isn’t always the best for you
stand firm by your convictions L337, you're the only one who has to live your life!
"OMGWTFBBQ"... what does the BBQ bit stand for?
I think people can get disenchanted w/ any profession, but i think generally u have 2 sacrifice so much more 2 b a dr... from the age of 15 (when u start yr 11) until the end, its work work work work work work work... o and maybe a little play. it puts undue stress on your family, your relationships, your sanity, your time, etc. its one thing getting disenchanted about an office job u took three yrs of uni 2 qualify 4 (a lot of it spent drinking). its another thing 2 put that effort into med and then "discover" its not all that its cracked up 2 b.
wow, i think i just discovered a bias i have about med. i've always believed that every profession is valuable, and whatever u do, u should do it 2 the best of your ability, and if u do that, you're just as good as someone employed in any other career (i.e. "all careers r equal"). but i think on the inside, i believe med is more demanding.
for the record, i think there r other really demanding jobs (single mother of 10 children, anyone?). however, i think the majority r less demanding than med.
"OMGWTFBBQ"... what does the BBQ bit stand for?
I think people can get disenchanted w/ any profession, but i think generally u have 2 sacrifice so much more 2 b a dr... from the age of 15 (when u start yr 11) until the end, its work work work work work work work... o and maybe a little play. it puts undue stress on your family, your relationships, your sanity, your time, etc. its one thing getting disenchanted about an office job u took three yrs of uni 2 qualify 4 (a lot of it spent drinking). its another thing 2 put that effort into med and then "discover" its not all that its cracked up 2 b.
wow, i think i just discovered a bias i have about med. i've always believed that every profession is valuable, and whatever u do, u should do it 2 the best of your ability, and if u do that, you're just as good as someone employed in any other career (i.e. "all careers r equal"). but i think on the inside, i believe med is more demanding.
for the record, i think there r other really demanding jobs (single mother of 10 children, anyone?). however, i think the majority r less demanding than med.
Maybe so, but you'd have to think that the extremely stressful nature of the medical profession would have a significant influence on this. Also, due to the (unbearable at times?) stress levels, you need to have a BIG commitiment to medicine to be able to be able to treat your patients correctly - if you start not to care, and even loathe them, it could result in catastrophe....
Or at least, that's what I think in any case...
PS - It's interesting to note the reactions I got when I told some of my medicine-aspiring "friends" from school that I was reconsidering my choice of career... After the initial "OMGWTFBBQ!", they just refused to beleive that medicine could be anything but THE dream job (did I mention these guys have the box sets of House and Scrubs?) and proceeded to say that I was "soft". Maybe I should direct them to MSO where Chnaski can give them a good talking to.... B)
PPS - I think it'll be even scarier when i tell my parents ... oh well, it's my life and all that jazz, and it's not like I've ruled med out completely.
Or at least, that's what I think in any case...
PS - It's interesting to note the reactions I got when I told some of my medicine-aspiring "friends" from school that I was reconsidering my choice of career... After the initial "OMGWTFBBQ!", they just refused to beleive that medicine could be anything but THE dream job (did I mention these guys have the box sets of House and Scrubs?) and proceeded to say that I was "soft". Maybe I should direct them to MSO where Chnaski can give them a good talking to.... B)
PPS - I think it'll be even scarier when i tell my parents ... oh well, it's my life and all that jazz, and it's not like I've ruled med out completely.
I dont..burn out and/ or boredom can happen in any job...
Generic:
"get to that point where it becomes a job, where getting out of bed and going to work is just a drag,"
Your motives and reasons may not have changed (or alternatively they may) but this can occur in any profession...you don’t have to be a Dr to loathe going to work or to be still in it for the wrong reasons. Feeling trapped or unsatisfied professionally can be due to many things (just like there are many things which can keep a person in a profession they no longer enjoy).
Generic:
"get to that point where it becomes a job, where getting out of bed and going to work is just a drag,"
Your motives and reasons may not have changed (or alternatively they may) but this can occur in any profession...you don’t have to be a Dr to loathe going to work or to be still in it for the wrong reasons. Feeling trapped or unsatisfied professionally can be due to many things (just like there are many things which can keep a person in a profession they no longer enjoy).
Thanks AussieChica (and no, you don't sound condescending ). I think it's great that you've got that "battler" attitude, and certainly you have much more life experience than me (being a uni student already and all), and I wish you well for medicine. In any case, I got the book "Medicine: A Guide For Prospective Students" by Patrick Mackerras a few weeks ago, and this is one of the standout quotes for me:
At some stage in their professional lives, a lot of doctors get to that point where it becomes a job, where getting out of bed and going to work is just a drag, and the concerns of their pateints becomes an irritation. Whenever you get to that point, whether it be as an intern or someone further down the line, it's time to get help. The day you stop doing it because you care for the people you're looking after as well as for the professional and intellectual satisfaction that you might get from it, is the day that you need to have a long hard look at what you're doing.
Basically, I don't want to ever reach that stage. I mean, you hear all the stories about ******* surgeons, who couldn't care less about anyone, walk around in a haze of glory, have the personal relationship breakdowns, etc etc. In the end, I thought it might be wise to SERIOUSLY consider what I want from life. So yeah, I'll be trying to organise some work experience both at a hospital and a dental surgery to try and make up my mind......because I just don't think I'm ready to make the decision right here and now
@ NightShadow - Well, I think chinaski said one time, that the reason she keeps on going, is because of the fact that, despite all the crap, eventually the conditions will get better.
At some stage in their professional lives, a lot of doctors get to that point where it becomes a job, where getting out of bed and going to work is just a drag, and the concerns of their pateints becomes an irritation. Whenever you get to that point, whether it be as an intern or someone further down the line, it's time to get help. The day you stop doing it because you care for the people you're looking after as well as for the professional and intellectual satisfaction that you might get from it, is the day that you need to have a long hard look at what you're doing.
Basically, I don't want to ever reach that stage. I mean, you hear all the stories about ******* surgeons, who couldn't care less about anyone, walk around in a haze of glory, have the personal relationship breakdowns, etc etc. In the end, I thought it might be wise to SERIOUSLY consider what I want from life. So yeah, I'll be trying to organise some work experience both at a hospital and a dental surgery to try and make up my mind......because I just don't think I'm ready to make the decision right here and now
@ NightShadow - Well, I think chinaski said one time, that the reason she keeps on going, is because of the fact that, despite all the crap, eventually the conditions will get better.
well so far it sounds like you're using really good reasoning, i'm proud of u (hope that didn't sound condescending). it's v. mature 2 b able 2 look at your real motives for something, and then reassess, because they might not be appropriate to the reality of what u desire. i think medicine is amazing, i can read all the doom and gloom, and it just gives me that aussie battler's sense of dogged determination 2 get through it. but if u don't have that strong a desire to go through all the crap, then by all means go for another career which is still interesting, challenging, science-y, people-y, etc. but without all the downfalls of med.
in regards 2 what other ppl say: they're not the ones who r going 2 have 2 live your life, u r.
if i were u i'd spend some serious time at a hospital somehow. idk how, just get in there, get a real feel for the place. get someone 2 beat u up, lol, jk. that's way more realistic than all the tv shows u mentioned (so glad i never got into those except for house, which i got into this yr). if u can spend time there and decide u don't wanna b a dr, awesome, put all your energy into dentistry/whatever. just don't make a major life decision while you're in yr 11 lol.
in regards 2 what other ppl say: they're not the ones who r going 2 have 2 live your life, u r.
if i were u i'd spend some serious time at a hospital somehow. idk how, just get in there, get a real feel for the place. get someone 2 beat u up, lol, jk. that's way more realistic than all the tv shows u mentioned (so glad i never got into those except for house, which i got into this yr). if u can spend time there and decide u don't wanna b a dr, awesome, put all your energy into dentistry/whatever. just don't make a major life decision while you're in yr 11 lol.
Less places maybe, but lower requirements too. Also, I'd be preapred to put in the effort to get in, especially if a career in dentistry is "cushy" (ie. awesome :P ) as it sounds.
@ AussieChica - Beleive it or not, the first career I ever wanted was a scientist (when i was 8), because (i remember saying this) "they get to wear cool white coats." After some serious brainwashing during the years, my parent started preaching the virtues of medicine (most of which I ignored). Then, in Yr.10, I started watching House, Grey's, Scrubs etc and thought, "######, this could be a cool career!" I maintained this attitude until, well, until I cam here really. This site, as well as PagingDr, and visits to see doctors, has kinda made me realise that med isn't the uber career for all the smart ppl like i first thought. I also (with some help from Dr mal) realised that sometimes the most "prestigious" career isn't the best. I realised, that even if I did make it to the top as some elite neurosurgeon, making $500k, would it be worth it? would I have te TIME to spend the money? TO pursue some of my goals in life? To follow my dreams?
I realised that I wanted pretty much what any person wants from life - job stability, excellet pay, good working hours (see previous post - you get the idea) - and that Med isn't the only way to get that (*shock horror*). So yeah....
Although I haven't eliminated the possibiity of Medicine as a career completely, I think it's safe to say, if I had to choose QTAC preferences now, I'd be putting Dent at the top of the list.
@ titan - chicks may dig doctors, but good luck meeting them when you're working 50+hr weeks as a junior doctor lol, jks :P
Anyway, ALL the dental assistants I've ever seen see to be hot 20-somethings (one reason i used to love trips ot my ortho when I had braces). Yet another thing to make coming to work more appealing for dentists, i wonder? B)
@ AussieChica - Beleive it or not, the first career I ever wanted was a scientist (when i was 8), because (i remember saying this) "they get to wear cool white coats." After some serious brainwashing during the years, my parent started preaching the virtues of medicine (most of which I ignored). Then, in Yr.10, I started watching House, Grey's, Scrubs etc and thought, "######, this could be a cool career!" I maintained this attitude until, well, until I cam here really. This site, as well as PagingDr, and visits to see doctors, has kinda made me realise that med isn't the uber career for all the smart ppl like i first thought. I also (with some help from Dr mal) realised that sometimes the most "prestigious" career isn't the best. I realised, that even if I did make it to the top as some elite neurosurgeon, making $500k, would it be worth it? would I have te TIME to spend the money? TO pursue some of my goals in life? To follow my dreams?
I realised that I wanted pretty much what any person wants from life - job stability, excellet pay, good working hours (see previous post - you get the idea) - and that Med isn't the only way to get that (*shock horror*). So yeah....
Although I haven't eliminated the possibiity of Medicine as a career completely, I think it's safe to say, if I had to choose QTAC preferences now, I'd be putting Dent at the top of the list.
@ titan - chicks may dig doctors, but good luck meeting them when you're working 50+hr weeks as a junior doctor lol, jks :P
Anyway, ALL the dental assistants I've ever seen see to be hot 20-somethings (one reason i used to love trips ot my ortho when I had braces). Yet another thing to make coming to work more appealing for dentists, i wonder? B)
Because I know people who have become architects. When I was young, I dreamt of creating buildings nobody else had ever seen. But the reality of architecture is the same as the reality of any creative profession - you have to create what the market wants. I am lucky enough to have some talent with art, music, and cooking - I could pursue a career as an artist, as a painter, and as a chef if I had the appropriate training. But your survival depends on compromising your beliefs and producing what people will want to consume. Since I cannot see myself designing boring houses for a conservative marketplace I do not wish to pursue that career.
IN ANY CASE this thread is not about me. It's about what you will face when you finish your degrees and get out into the workforce.
I am quite upset to read the newspapers and read that all the brightest VCE graduates wish to pursue a career in medicine. If only they knew ...
IN ANY CASE this thread is not about me. It's about what you will face when you finish your degrees and get out into the workforce.
I am quite upset to read the newspapers and read that all the brightest VCE graduates wish to pursue a career in medicine. If only they knew ...
"extraordinary pay, nice hours, excellent employability"
if that is what you're looking for, by all means, go for dent. but just don't b too hasty in throwing out med, u've got 2 yrs to do it. but if one of your primary motivations is "looks like a good job, makes mum happy, fits into dream life scenario etc.", then yes, get out of med now.
if that is what you're looking for, by all means, go for dent. but just don't b too hasty in throwing out med, u've got 2 yrs to do it. but if one of your primary motivations is "looks like a good job, makes mum happy, fits into dream life scenario etc.", then yes, get out of med now.
Sorry I'm a bit late to this thread, but:
I have reconsidered my career path in the light on the wealth of information/advice given to me about medicine in this past year.
Having been always encouraged by my (stereotypical curry) parents to study hard in the promise of an "easy" life with a "high-paying" job in later life, I was somewhat shocked to hear all these accounts of dissatisfaction among docs. At first, I tried to block it out, but as more and more docs (on the net, and in real life) shared the view, i figured it would be wise to reconsider. I always thought at the end of Yr. 12 (or at the very lates, the end of uni) all the hard work stopped, and you could more or less "cruise" on in life...marry, buy a sweet-*** car/house, start a family, enjoy life etc. How very naive I was...
Being at an elitist private school, it's depressing to see so many hard-working, parent-obeying, naive academics say that they want to do medicine without any good reason - you know that they will eventually be dissapointed, but nothing you do or say can persuade them otherwise - it's some kind of drive implanted in their brains - get into med, make parents proud, earn money/prestige as a doctor. Once upon a time, I thought that too...
So yeah, without raving on without a point, i have reconsidered my career choice in terms of what people have said about medicine. I think i may have been able to deal with the crap hours, dodgy pay, and general bad conditions, but what pushed it over the edge for me was the lack of availability of accredited training positions. i mean, after working your sorry *** off to get into med, get through uni, and survive your intern/RMO years, do get a pat on the back, telling you "you've done well, here's something to make your life easier" (ie-a fellowship). No, you get another ~5 years of hell, but first you have to "sell your soul" to get their. I mean, W.T.F
But yeah, though I haven't ruled out med altogether, I would have to say that dentistry is beginning to look very attractive - extraordinary pay, nice hours, excellent employability (number of dentists is decreasing = ) and so on. It sounds almost too good to be true.....
But to all those doing medicine in spite of these pessimistic/gloomy comments, well I simultaneously applaud you for being determined and slap you ("WTF are you insane freaks thinking!!") :P .
I have reconsidered my career path in the light on the wealth of information/advice given to me about medicine in this past year.
Having been always encouraged by my (stereotypical curry) parents to study hard in the promise of an "easy" life with a "high-paying" job in later life, I was somewhat shocked to hear all these accounts of dissatisfaction among docs. At first, I tried to block it out, but as more and more docs (on the net, and in real life) shared the view, i figured it would be wise to reconsider. I always thought at the end of Yr. 12 (or at the very lates, the end of uni) all the hard work stopped, and you could more or less "cruise" on in life...marry, buy a sweet-*** car/house, start a family, enjoy life etc. How very naive I was...
Being at an elitist private school, it's depressing to see so many hard-working, parent-obeying, naive academics say that they want to do medicine without any good reason - you know that they will eventually be dissapointed, but nothing you do or say can persuade them otherwise - it's some kind of drive implanted in their brains - get into med, make parents proud, earn money/prestige as a doctor. Once upon a time, I thought that too...
So yeah, without raving on without a point, i have reconsidered my career choice in terms of what people have said about medicine. I think i may have been able to deal with the crap hours, dodgy pay, and general bad conditions, but what pushed it over the edge for me was the lack of availability of accredited training positions. i mean, after working your sorry *** off to get into med, get through uni, and survive your intern/RMO years, do get a pat on the back, telling you "you've done well, here's something to make your life easier" (ie-a fellowship). No, you get another ~5 years of hell, but first you have to "sell your soul" to get their. I mean, W.T.F
But yeah, though I haven't ruled out med altogether, I would have to say that dentistry is beginning to look very attractive - extraordinary pay, nice hours, excellent employability (number of dentists is decreasing = ) and so on. It sounds almost too good to be true.....
But to all those doing medicine in spite of these pessimistic/gloomy comments, well I simultaneously applaud you for being determined and slap you ("WTF are you insane freaks thinking!!") :P .
Well today at work I did a quick audit of some of the registrars. I said "if a person in year 12 asks you whether it is a good idea to pursue medicine, would you encourage or discourage them?". I asked this question to 8-9 registrars today and a couple of consultants. And a whole bunch of interns/RMO's.
In general the RMO's all said that they would answer a definite yes. One RMO said "I love it!".
The registrars either said "no" or "maybe".
The consultant said "why would anyone want to do medicine now? They must be crazy!". When I asked him why, he said that things had changed a lot from when he was an intern to now. Back then, there was less to know, so medical schools taught less theory and more practical medicine. When you graduated as an intern, you were actually capable of doing many things that 2nd or 3rd year RMO's are doing now. He said that an intern graduating in 2006 has none of the skills that we had, but instead have a lot of theoretical knowledge and a HUGE emphasis on all that touchy-feely stuff. He reckons that a 2006 intern needs 2 years of on-the-job experience before they acquire the skills that an intern in his day had.
This sort of mirrors my own experience. When I was an intern, I loved medicine and thought that I was so lucky that I had by fluke, chosen the "right" course which had put me in a rewarding career. Whenever I read about a doctor being sued, I used to feel sorry for the poor doc because surely the error may have been a misjudgement, but the decision must have been based on the best intentions.
Now that I have gotten older, I do not feel the same. I have seen SO MANY EXAMPLES of shoddy practice, poor decision making, preventable complications and preventable deaths, and iatrogenic complications that arise purely because of hospital culture (needlessly giving IV fluids for example). I now firmly believe that medicine needs to get it up the back end before doctors become motivated enough to reform our profession.
IN ANY CASE next year I won't be working regularly as a doctor any more. I will have some time to reconsider my future.
Oh, another thing - I don't mind 17 year olds, or medical students, or interns criticizing me or questioning me. Fear of authority is another really bad characteristic of doctors. So redorangish, if they want to see for themselves what medicine is like that's fine. Lots of people really enjoy it. But many others (like myself) do not. The trends and the way medicine is heading is not attractive
In general the RMO's all said that they would answer a definite yes. One RMO said "I love it!".
The registrars either said "no" or "maybe".
The consultant said "why would anyone want to do medicine now? They must be crazy!". When I asked him why, he said that things had changed a lot from when he was an intern to now. Back then, there was less to know, so medical schools taught less theory and more practical medicine. When you graduated as an intern, you were actually capable of doing many things that 2nd or 3rd year RMO's are doing now. He said that an intern graduating in 2006 has none of the skills that we had, but instead have a lot of theoretical knowledge and a HUGE emphasis on all that touchy-feely stuff. He reckons that a 2006 intern needs 2 years of on-the-job experience before they acquire the skills that an intern in his day had.
This sort of mirrors my own experience. When I was an intern, I loved medicine and thought that I was so lucky that I had by fluke, chosen the "right" course which had put me in a rewarding career. Whenever I read about a doctor being sued, I used to feel sorry for the poor doc because surely the error may have been a misjudgement, but the decision must have been based on the best intentions.
Now that I have gotten older, I do not feel the same. I have seen SO MANY EXAMPLES of shoddy practice, poor decision making, preventable complications and preventable deaths, and iatrogenic complications that arise purely because of hospital culture (needlessly giving IV fluids for example). I now firmly believe that medicine needs to get it up the back end before doctors become motivated enough to reform our profession.
IN ANY CASE next year I won't be working regularly as a doctor any more. I will have some time to reconsider my future.
Oh, another thing - I don't mind 17 year olds, or medical students, or interns criticizing me or questioning me. Fear of authority is another really bad characteristic of doctors. So redorangish, if they want to see for themselves what medicine is like that's fine. Lots of people really enjoy it. But many others (like myself) do not. The trends and the way medicine is heading is not attractive
We're not all 17 and we don’t all see the glass as half empty You can be a realist and an optimist.
Not every experience of working in Med will be universal and as such, it would be stupid of us to ruin what we see as an excellent thing based upon one testimony (although this truthful and evidenced based perspective is being echoed constantly now)...On the other hand, those who are giving us the info are where we plan to be at in a few years time and you are doing it for altruistic reasons...
This will sound pig-headed but they are our choices to make and a Med degree isn’t that wrong a move, if we believe the knowledge will be useful and the opportunities are there...MBBS graduates can go anywhere, including back to uni to do another degree if we feel it is necessary to do so...There are always other options out there?
I can’t speak for everyone in my generation but if the new IR laws are anything to go by we will all be on contracts anyway?…This brings its own job security issues but it also allows for freedom to change where we are, or barter for better conditions directly with our employer.
I hope medicine moves in a more positive direction but I won’t be waiting around for a miracle to happen if it isn’t. The progress seems to be happening very slowly; how many more young doctors suiciding will it take for change to occur? Surely one is devastating enough especially if it was preventable. Sitting back with a belief that “we suffered so you should too” doesn’t seem like the team-work camaraderie we begin Med school with…We shouldn’t become desensitised to this because we are now doctors competing for training programs.
So where will health be with a mass exodus of doctors? The gov pumps the schools with Med places while all the people who would be training us want to and are leaving…awesome
Feel free to correct me at anytime B)
EDIT: I still believe that Medicine as a career is what I want to do until my experience of working in it dictates otherwise...I know doctors who are fulfilled; although it clearly isn’t doing it for you, regardless of your love for Medicine. It seems that I have selective hearing but I'm happy to accept the risk?
Not every experience of working in Med will be universal and as such, it would be stupid of us to ruin what we see as an excellent thing based upon one testimony (although this truthful and evidenced based perspective is being echoed constantly now)...On the other hand, those who are giving us the info are where we plan to be at in a few years time and you are doing it for altruistic reasons...
This will sound pig-headed but they are our choices to make and a Med degree isn’t that wrong a move, if we believe the knowledge will be useful and the opportunities are there...MBBS graduates can go anywhere, including back to uni to do another degree if we feel it is necessary to do so...There are always other options out there?
I can’t speak for everyone in my generation but if the new IR laws are anything to go by we will all be on contracts anyway?…This brings its own job security issues but it also allows for freedom to change where we are, or barter for better conditions directly with our employer.
I hope medicine moves in a more positive direction but I won’t be waiting around for a miracle to happen if it isn’t. The progress seems to be happening very slowly; how many more young doctors suiciding will it take for change to occur? Surely one is devastating enough especially if it was preventable. Sitting back with a belief that “we suffered so you should too” doesn’t seem like the team-work camaraderie we begin Med school with…We shouldn’t become desensitised to this because we are now doctors competing for training programs.
So where will health be with a mass exodus of doctors? The gov pumps the schools with Med places while all the people who would be training us want to and are leaving…awesome
Feel free to correct me at anytime B)
EDIT: I still believe that Medicine as a career is what I want to do until my experience of working in it dictates otherwise...I know doctors who are fulfilled; although it clearly isn’t doing it for you, regardless of your love for Medicine. It seems that I have selective hearing but I'm happy to accept the risk?
All the best, Amfibius - I'm sure your background in medicine will give you an advantage in these other fields.
velox, I didn't think you were being rude. I just wanted to clarify things.
On that point though, has anyone read or heard of another person's experience in medicine and actually made the decision to pursue another career path? I'm not sure if I speak for most of us when I say that despite all of these negative aspects associated with medicine - there are still many ambitious people that are keen to take the plunge. I'm not sure how many of us are swayed by the dismal accounts. I think a healthy dose of the truth is good to maintain a realistic perspective - but is it honestly affecting the bulk of us? Personally, I think I'm too headstrong to not embrace the opportunity if I was accepted into medicine. At least that way I'd have seen it first-hand and not constantly ask "What if?" Am I deluding myself in thinking that my reasons for wanting to pursue medicine is enough? How does a 17 or 18 year old decide whether they have what it takes to find personal satisfation amongst the chaos?
velox, I didn't think you were being rude. I just wanted to clarify things.
On that point though, has anyone read or heard of another person's experience in medicine and actually made the decision to pursue another career path? I'm not sure if I speak for most of us when I say that despite all of these negative aspects associated with medicine - there are still many ambitious people that are keen to take the plunge. I'm not sure how many of us are swayed by the dismal accounts. I think a healthy dose of the truth is good to maintain a realistic perspective - but is it honestly affecting the bulk of us? Personally, I think I'm too headstrong to not embrace the opportunity if I was accepted into medicine. At least that way I'd have seen it first-hand and not constantly ask "What if?" Am I deluding myself in thinking that my reasons for wanting to pursue medicine is enough? How does a 17 or 18 year old decide whether they have what it takes to find personal satisfation amongst the chaos?
Liv, I think one of the reasons doctors can't or don't 'fight' for changes is because there's not much you can do is there? I mean, OK, so say that you get into a discussion with your superiors about fairer working hours and they disagree with you or simply dismiss your concerns. What can you do? Just stop going to work? Gather up your fellow doctors and stage a 'protest'?
Obviously, as a doctor you have enormous responsibilty to the community, I mean, you're the one who is literally 'saving lives' - if you go on protest, it's not like people are just going to conveniently stop getting sick. So you can't just up and leave. I think that's probably one of the main reasons why "seriously astute" doctors seem so masochistic sometimes
Obviously, as a doctor you have enormous responsibilty to the community, I mean, you're the one who is literally 'saving lives' - if you go on protest, it's not like people are just going to conveniently stop getting sick. So you can't just up and leave. I think that's probably one of the main reasons why "seriously astute" doctors seem so masochistic sometimes
Cheers Amfibius!
I see truth in your words and im not a doctor yet…The question is whether our lives will unfold the way yours has (and there isn’t a reason to say it wont). It is reading posts like yours (and sometimes Chinaski's) that make me think it wise to have a way out of Med, should things go awry because you feel trapped in a profession that is circling the drain (for the reasons we can cite above).
What seems surprising to me is how a bunch of seriously astute people cant seem to improve the situation...things always seem out of your hands (talking about the power struggles and not life & death which probably is out of your hands)...Doctors don’t seem the type to just accept something second rate yet we accept it for ourselves, and recreate it daily (a pattern of abuse where past mistakes aren't rectified); when better conditions, less hours, lower ratios etc aren’t fought for...Do you think this is because the situation really cant be fixed or that it would require enormous change (across the board) that will never eventuate; so you don’t see your perspective of Med changing...
I enjoy your writing style so I'd buy your book It is impressive that you can write like that after a few wines B)
I think I'll repost this when I haven’t worked >12 hours & it isn’t 2am :P It might make more sense
Would you change your mind about choosing Med as a career? Knowing what you do now? (The answer seem obvious reading between the lines but I'd appreciate an outright answer). Should we just try to be the CEO of the hospital instead
I see truth in your words and im not a doctor yet…The question is whether our lives will unfold the way yours has (and there isn’t a reason to say it wont). It is reading posts like yours (and sometimes Chinaski's) that make me think it wise to have a way out of Med, should things go awry because you feel trapped in a profession that is circling the drain (for the reasons we can cite above).
What seems surprising to me is how a bunch of seriously astute people
I enjoy your writing style so I'd buy your book It is impressive that you can write like that after a few wines B)
I think I'll repost this when I haven’t worked >12 hours & it isn’t 2am :P It might make more sense
Would you change your mind about choosing Med as a career? Knowing what you do now? (The answer seem obvious reading between the lines but I'd appreciate an outright answer). Should we just try to be the CEO of the hospital instead
Thanks, but I have no interest in starting a blog. A bit too self-indulgent.
IF the book I am writing ever comes out i'll be sure to let you people know
In any case the thread is about the future of medicine. OK to be fair it's not going to be all bad, but just look around and see how many unhappy / disillusioned doctors there are. We all start off with high ideals and want to keep our motives pure, and then we find ourselves trampled upon by petty bureaucrats who line their own nests while giving us hardly any resources to work with.
IF the book I am writing ever comes out i'll be sure to let you people know
In any case the thread is about the future of medicine. OK to be fair it's not going to be all bad, but just look around and see how many unhappy / disillusioned doctors there are. We all start off with high ideals and want to keep our motives pure, and then we find ourselves trampled upon by petty bureaucrats who line their own nests while giving us hardly any resources to work with.
Er, this was never meant to be a thread about me
trippy, I think i've probably got the wrong personality for the job. Like I indicated, in 2006 I would be eliminated in the interview process if I was honest about my motives. Although, as a smart Yr 12 kid I would have been able to tell them what they wanted to hear to make sure that I got myself in.
As for people who need my help the most - in my OWN opinion it's the people who want to be helped. Patients are not created equal. If I had a donor kidney and had to choose between someone who would comply with treatment and someone who was completely irresponsible, I would give it to the patient who would comply with treatment.
And yes there are times when I love my job. I love some of my patients and we have a great relationship. There are still a lot of people out there who respect you for giving them impartial advice. NOTHING beats the buzz of saving a life, just like nothing beats the depression of failing to prevent a preventable death. I can honestly point to many people walking around today and say that that person is walking around because of ME. Even if they don't remember my name.
I can remember many patients, long gone, whom I failed to save. There was a 21 year old who died on Jan 1, 2000. And a 35 year old girl who waved sweetly at me as she was wheeled into theatre for the very last time. Next time I saw her, she was a disembowelled empty shell with her expertly removed organs arranged neatly on the autopsy table. The pathologist was showing me an "interesting finding" in her liver. My mind was 1000 miles away. I could not help looking at my very dead patient and thinking what a lovely girl she was.
These things stay with you. Sometimes my fiancee sees me staring into space and musing about things. These are the patients I think about.
And let's be clear about this - I do not hate my job. I hate the direction the profession and health care is moving. I hate the waste, the meaningless trials, and the prostitution of medicine for commercial interests. I think it would be fair to say that I love medicine itself - it's just all the other rubbish that comes with the job that I hate.
trippy, I think i've probably got the wrong personality for the job. Like I indicated, in 2006 I would be eliminated in the interview process if I was honest about my motives. Although, as a smart Yr 12 kid I would have been able to tell them what they wanted to hear to make sure that I got myself in.
As for people who need my help the most - in my OWN opinion it's the people who want to be helped. Patients are not created equal. If I had a donor kidney and had to choose between someone who would comply with treatment and someone who was completely irresponsible, I would give it to the patient who would comply with treatment.
And yes there are times when I love my job. I love some of my patients and we have a great relationship. There are still a lot of people out there who respect you for giving them impartial advice. NOTHING beats the buzz of saving a life, just like nothing beats the depression of failing to prevent a preventable death. I can honestly point to many people walking around today and say that that person is walking around because of ME. Even if they don't remember my name.
I can remember many patients, long gone, whom I failed to save. There was a 21 year old who died on Jan 1, 2000. And a 35 year old girl who waved sweetly at me as she was wheeled into theatre for the very last time. Next time I saw her, she was a disembowelled empty shell with her expertly removed organs arranged neatly on the autopsy table. The pathologist was showing me an "interesting finding" in her liver. My mind was 1000 miles away. I could not help looking at my very dead patient and thinking what a lovely girl she was.
These things stay with you. Sometimes my fiancee sees me staring into space and musing about things. These are the patients I think about.
And let's be clear about this - I do not hate my job. I hate the direction the profession and health care is moving. I hate the waste, the meaningless trials, and the prostitution of medicine for commercial interests. I think it would be fair to say that I love medicine itself - it's just all the other rubbish that comes with the job that I hate.
Jellibelli there is no easy answer for the questions you raised.
The reason why I did medicine was for job security. When I enrolled, Australia was in the middle of a recession. I wanted to be an architect, but decided against that when I saw many architects retrenched. I never wanted to be retrenched. The second reason was because I was (like many of you) an ace in sciences.
Patients? What its like to be a doctor? I had no idea. Someone like me would be eliminated in the interview process in the new system as soon as I revealed my motives. Back then, I just had to finish in the top few 0.5% of the state and I was in. Maybe it would have been better for someone to pat me on the back and say "medicine is not for you, my friend".
Maybe it's different now, but back in my time most people would eventually admit that they did medicine for themselves and not because of some noble idea of helping people.
In any case, when you start seeing patients you wonder why you should be helping them at all, when they won't even help themselves! They don't give up smoking, they don't take their medications, they don't value your advice. Dialysis is one such egregious example - miss one dialysis day, and you will turn up drowning in the fluid that you can't excrete. This means that the dialysis staff have to get out of bed at 1am to save your sorry butt. All the while, they are thinking that they set aside valuable dialysis time to treat this patient which could be given to someone more needy on the waiting list. And a lot of people are like this - regularly miss dialysis, turn up to hospital at 1AM, and people still get out of bed, and come to work to save their lives.
And here is another example - I attended a medical emergency for someone who had a cardio-respiratory arrest for low blood sugar (took his insulin, did not take his meal). After 10 minutes I managed to bring him back. I said "we just saved your life!". He looked at me and said "Well that's your job isn't it!". Not a word of thanks. Well yes it is my job, but maybe next time i'll just have another coffee when the code blue alarm goes off.
How would you respond to something like that?
The demise of medicine as a specialty is not new. My father advised me strongly not to do it - which is very unusual for an asian parent. He brought me to meet some of his doctor friends and they all told me the truth - you will work HARD and not be appreciated. To a 17 year old who has just finished Year 12 near the very top, the world was my oyster. I did not believe them.
The reason why I did medicine was for job security. When I enrolled, Australia was in the middle of a recession. I wanted to be an architect, but decided against that when I saw many architects retrenched. I never wanted to be retrenched. The second reason was because I was (like many of you) an ace in sciences.
Patients? What its like to be a doctor? I had no idea. Someone like me would be eliminated in the interview process in the new system as soon as I revealed my motives. Back then, I just had to finish in the top few 0.5% of the state and I was in. Maybe it would have been better for someone to pat me on the back and say "medicine is not for you, my friend".
Maybe it's different now, but back in my time most people would eventually admit that they did medicine for themselves and not because of some noble idea of helping people.
In any case, when you start seeing patients you wonder why you should be helping them at all, when they won't even help themselves! They don't give up smoking, they don't take their medications, they don't value your advice. Dialysis is one such egregious example - miss one dialysis day, and you will turn up drowning in the fluid that you can't excrete. This means that the dialysis staff have to get out of bed at 1am to save your sorry butt. All the while, they are thinking that they set aside valuable dialysis time to treat this patient which could be given to someone more needy on the waiting list. And a lot of people are like this - regularly miss dialysis, turn up to hospital at 1AM, and people still get out of bed, and come to work to save their lives.
And here is another example - I attended a medical emergency for someone who had a cardio-respiratory arrest for low blood sugar (took his insulin, did not take his meal). After 10 minutes I managed to bring him back. I said "we just saved your life!". He looked at me and said "Well that's your job isn't it!". Not a word of thanks. Well yes it is my job, but maybe next time i'll just have another coffee when the code blue alarm goes off.
How would you respond to something like that?
The demise of medicine as a specialty is not new. My father advised me strongly not to do it - which is very unusual for an asian parent. He brought me to meet some of his doctor friends and they all told me the truth - you will work HARD and not be appreciated. To a 17 year old who has just finished Year 12 near the very top, the world was my oyster. I did not believe them.
Thanks for the insight to what it is really like Amfibius; there is no doubt that everyone else found this opinion very valuable and confronting.
I'm not sure if this opinion is valid but do the drug companies put the % mark-up on the prices to pay for the research that was involved in discovering the drug? The money must come from somewhere and I don't think government funding covers it adequately. Nonetheless, it is disheartening to know that politicians are taking over.
Is this demise in medicine as a profession a recent thing? I'm pretty sure there was a time when doctors were respected for the work they did and their contribution to the community. I wonder what happened in our world to change all of that. Perhaps there are too many lawyers, businessmen trying to cash in on health care - a service which will never fail to lose its demand. This is one of the reasons why I was attracted to medicine because no matter what happens in the world - people will always need doctors. Or so I thought.
Even though there are so many negative aspects of medicine, at the end of the day there are still so many ambitious, talented young people that aspire to be doctors. Is there no way of being immune to becoming an unapproachable narcissist? I know it's a cliche but isn't the primary reason why most people who want to be doctors is to help people in the best way they know how?
Amfibius, I'm interested to know what your reasons were for pursuing a career in medicine in 1991 and have those reasons been fulfilled? And also, what makes people stay in the game? What makes doctors, that are suffering from a poor, degrading system stick at it?
I'm not sure if this opinion is valid but do the drug companies put the % mark-up on the prices to pay for the research that was involved in discovering the drug? The money must come from somewhere and I don't think government funding covers it adequately. Nonetheless, it is disheartening to know that politicians are taking over.
Is this demise in medicine as a profession a recent thing? I'm pretty sure there was a time when doctors were respected for the work they did and their contribution to the community. I wonder what happened in our world to change all of that. Perhaps there are too many lawyers, businessmen trying to cash in on health care - a service which will never fail to lose its demand. This is one of the reasons why I was attracted to medicine because no matter what happens in the world - people will always need doctors. Or so I thought.
Even though there are so many negative aspects of medicine, at the end of the day there are still so many ambitious, talented young people that aspire to be doctors. Is there no way of being immune to becoming an unapproachable narcissist? I know it's a cliche but isn't the primary reason why most people who want to be doctors is to help people in the best way they know how?
Amfibius, I'm interested to know what your reasons were for pursuing a career in medicine in 1991 and have those reasons been fulfilled? And also, what makes people stay in the game? What makes doctors, that are suffering from a poor, degrading system stick at it?
Well it was me who wrote the above. I wrote it after having a few too many glasses of wine after a particularly bad day. If I wrote it again I would probably remove some of the stronger words like "corrupt" and "b******s" but it's in the public domain now. My opinion still has not changed though.
When I was a first year medical student (1991) one of my tutors, a lovely soft-hearted woman, told me that she had a chat with the professor. She said "what lovely kids these are". The professor said "yes, and see what we turn them into".
At the time I thought to myself that I would never become one of those arrogant unapproachable doctors feared by the junior staff. I would guard against my tendency to be brusque and try to be friendly an approachable to everyone.
Then I graduated and started working. In my intern year, I discovered that it's not only the patients who have unrealistic expectations of you. So does your unsympathetic registrar and consultant. You discover you have friends and enemies in the hospital. People who want to listen to your problems and sympathize with you. Then there are people who expect you to cope with your workload and send you threatening memoes if your discharge summaries start to pile up. Patients are not the only ones with unrealistic expectations - nurses, medical administration, and some consultants are the same.
To illustrate my point about unrealistic expectations, if you are an intern in some parts of Australia there is a fair chance you will be sent to a country hospital to manage the entire hospital after hours. This means seeing all patients in emergency, managing the wards, and managing the patients in ICU. I know this, because I just returned from a stint in a country hospital where I saw this happening!
Would an airline roster a 1 week graduate from flying school to fly a 737 by himself? Would a law graduate of 1 week be allowed to handle a big case by himself? Would a chef who graduated from TAFE 1 week ago be allowed to cook in a restaurant all by himself? The answer to all of these questions is NO. So why are interns straight out from medical school asked to manage an entire hospital by themself?
(I am trying to put a stop to this - I have approached my hospital to recommend that it should be a 3rd year RMO job with close registrar/consultant support).
Anyway, after a few years of this kind of abuse you become a different person. Last year I had a particularly difficult job where I was kept awake all night by frequent phone calls and expected to go to work the next day. A junior doc (who wasn't my intern) later said to me "geez, when you are relaxed you are actually a really nice guy". That REALLY drove home the point that I had at last, turned into that grouchy arrogant, unapproachable b****** that I had set out to avoid becoming.
Things have gotten worse in the past 10 years i've been a doctor. My starting salary as an intern in 1997 was $39,500. In the same year, I bought an apartment which cost me $110,000. It's now 2006, and interns are paid $42,000. I sold my apartment last year for $320,000. AMA (Vic) have negotiated a "pay rise" for salaried MO's at 3% a year - which is below the inflation rate of about 3.9% - effectively a pay cut of 0.9% per year.
So are state governments allowed to get away with this? Because doctors are a captive market. If interns/RMO's don't like the working conditions, what other options are open to you? What political power do you have? Are we organized as a group to demand better conditions? Will the consultants support you? Or will they squash your career like a fly?
As for myself, I am now 34 and a senior registrar. When I become a consultant, I face the same climb up the slippery slope - join a practice, listen to the senior consultant, have no rights of my own (beyond the right to leave and join another practice). Continue the same **** kissing that you get so sick of when you're in training. Cities are so crowded with specialists that a young consultant has no scope to establish himself on his own. The only other option would be to move to the country where there would be a demand for my services. But that removes me from having a hospital base and from contact with other specialists.
Oh, and it's the same thing when you become a consultant. You can charge the ridiculously low medicare rebate for consultations and get the patients nobody else wants. Or you could charge a gap and be pilloried by patients and other doctors. You want to deliver a good quality service, but economic reality will force you to downgrade your service.
I will be taking a year off and deciding whether I want to continue or throw in the towel. I have gotten pretty good (if I say so myself) at making money outside medicine - so I might do that full time.
When I was a first year medical student (1991) one of my tutors, a lovely soft-hearted woman, told me that she had a chat with the professor. She said "what lovely kids these are". The professor said "yes, and see what we turn them into".
At the time I thought to myself that I would never become one of those arrogant unapproachable doctors feared by the junior staff. I would guard against my tendency to be brusque and try to be friendly an approachable to everyone.
Then I graduated and started working. In my intern year, I discovered that it's not only the patients who have unrealistic expectations of you. So does your unsympathetic registrar and consultant. You discover you have friends and enemies in the hospital. People who want to listen to your problems and sympathize with you. Then there are people who expect you to cope with your workload and send you threatening memoes if your discharge summaries start to pile up. Patients are not the only ones with unrealistic expectations - nurses, medical administration, and some consultants are the same.
To illustrate my point about unrealistic expectations, if you are an intern in some parts of Australia there is a fair chance you will be sent to a country hospital to manage the entire hospital after hours. This means seeing all patients in emergency, managing the wards, and managing the patients in ICU. I know this, because I just returned from a stint in a country hospital where I saw this happening!
Would an airline roster a 1 week graduate from flying school to fly a 737 by himself? Would a law graduate of 1 week be allowed to handle a big case by himself? Would a chef who graduated from TAFE 1 week ago be allowed to cook in a restaurant all by himself? The answer to all of these questions is NO. So why are interns straight out from medical school asked to manage an entire hospital by themself?
(I am trying to put a stop to this - I have approached my hospital to recommend that it should be a 3rd year RMO job with close registrar/consultant support).
Anyway, after a few years of this kind of abuse you become a different person. Last year I had a particularly difficult job where I was kept awake all night by frequent phone calls and expected to go to work the next day. A junior doc (who wasn't my intern) later said to me "geez, when you are relaxed you are actually a really nice guy". That REALLY drove home the point that I had at last, turned into that grouchy arrogant, unapproachable b****** that I had set out to avoid becoming.
Things have gotten worse in the past 10 years i've been a doctor. My starting salary as an intern in 1997 was $39,500. In the same year, I bought an apartment which cost me $110,000. It's now 2006, and interns are paid $42,000. I sold my apartment last year for $320,000. AMA (Vic) have negotiated a "pay rise" for salaried MO's at 3% a year - which is below the inflation rate of about 3.9% - effectively a pay cut of 0.9% per year.
So are state governments allowed to get away with this? Because doctors are a captive market. If interns/RMO's don't like the working conditions, what other options are open to you? What political power do you have? Are we organized as a group to demand better conditions? Will the consultants support you? Or will they squash your career like a fly?
As for myself, I am now 34 and a senior registrar. When I become a consultant, I face the same climb up the slippery slope - join a practice, listen to the senior consultant, have no rights of my own (beyond the right to leave and join another practice). Continue the same **** kissing that you get so sick of when you're in training. Cities are so crowded with specialists that a young consultant has no scope to establish himself on his own. The only other option would be to move to the country where there would be a demand for my services. But that removes me from having a hospital base and from contact with other specialists.
Oh, and it's the same thing when you become a consultant. You can charge the ridiculously low medicare rebate for consultations and get the patients nobody else wants. Or you could charge a gap and be pilloried by patients and other doctors. You want to deliver a good quality service, but economic reality will force you to downgrade your service.
I will be taking a year off and deciding whether I want to continue or throw in the towel. I have gotten pretty good (if I say so myself) at making money outside medicine - so I might do that full time.
Yeah. My Dad would agree with some of the stuff that doctor's said... especially the above... unrealistic expectations of the community, e.g. people demanding their GP to sign their 'disability' payment certificate, demanding the doctor to make up **** so they can get their bloody dole payment and all sorts of other wonderful things like that. [This was VERY common in New Zealand... I'm not entirely sure if it applies to Australia... but I would assume it's not much different here.]
Would also like to add, I don't think that all doctors are 'corrupt', but certainly many of the doctors I've met (including even my own Father and his colleagues), in one way or another, have an obsession with money. You'd think it'd be different in a rural practice. But it's not really. The practice my Dad works at, well most of the doctors there are intent on seeing as many patients as they can... despite this decreasing the quality of the consult. And yet, they keep doing it.
Now of course, a whole lot of other factors come into play here, such as the fact that, rural practices are often very busy and doctors need to get through as many patients as they can. (crappy health system, shortage of rural doctors, blah blah blah)
But still... despite the shortage of rural doctors, even my Dad agrees that this stance of seeing a gazillion patients a day is definitely fuelled by the thought that more patients = more $$ baby...
And oh yeah, pharmaceutical companies are great... they sent my Daddy a birthday cake on his birthday... how thoughful.
Would also like to add, I don't think that all doctors are 'corrupt', but certainly many of the doctors I've met (including even my own Father and his colleagues), in one way or another, have an obsession with money. You'd think it'd be different in a rural practice. But it's not really. The practice my Dad works at, well most of the doctors there are intent on seeing as many patients as they can... despite this decreasing the quality of the consult. And yet, they keep doing it.
Now of course, a whole lot of other factors come into play here, such as the fact that, rural practices are often very busy and doctors need to get through as many patients as they can. (crappy health system, shortage of rural doctors, blah blah blah)
But still... despite the shortage of rural doctors, even my Dad agrees that this stance of seeing a gazillion patients a day is definitely fuelled by the thought that more patients = more $$ baby...
And oh yeah, pharmaceutical companies are great... they sent my Daddy a birthday cake on his birthday... how thoughful.
Medicine is a profession which has lost control over its own destiny. And the fault for this lies squarely on the doctors, who are mostly a bunch of useless cowards in denial. There are a lot of idealistic doctors out there who try to practice good medicine, but that would be less than 1/4 of all the doctors i've come across. Most of them are corrupt b****** who have gotten into bed with the drug companies and care little about the patients they treat, despite giving lip service to doing so.
Bureaucracy has now infiltrated every aspect of medicine. Want to give a patient the latest and greatest drug? You have to justify your decision to some faceless bureaucrat on 1800-888-333 (number for PBS authorities - I know it by heart) who can turn down your application if he can't tick all the boxes. How much do you get remunerated for your operation? Just look it up in the Medicare Rebates book. Because of this bureaucratic interference, the little yellow book has fuelled growth in the fields that are most profitable for doctors. Just look around you - how many people want to do gastro and cardiology? And why? It's because these specialties are well remunerated for not very much work. On the other hand, how many people want to be a country GP? Not many. Why? Because you work extremely hard for a pittance.
Don't believe me when I say that bureaucrats have taken over medicine? OK, go to a hospital. Look at the car parks - see where the bureacrats park their cars? Yup, usually in all the plum spots which are reserved for them. Where do the doctors (who do the REAL work) park their cars? Far away! Even a Nobel prize winner (we have a couple in WA) or an Australian of the Year does not score a better car park than the head petty bureacrat of the hospital. Yes, a small example I know, but it shows you how high doctors rate on their list.
Along with this has come the increasing corruption of the specialty by drug companies and other commercial interests. This malevolent influence has totally duped medicine and co-opted it to drive sales of drugs. Take the recent trial comparing PRN Symbicort vs. regular Seretide + PRN Ventolin - this showed that Symbicort was superior at preventing hospital admissions (no change in overall mortality). However, the obvious question was not even reported in the paper - what about steroid side effects from the increased dose of Symbicort? Or cardiac side effects from the increased dose of long acting beta-agonist?
Such skewed trials are distorting the principle of evidence based medicine and bringing up a new generation of doctors who will know nothing about REAL trials. The only trials they get to perform will be drug company sponsored trials.
Oh, and i'll get on my rant of medical academics. These guys only exist to see their name mentioned in journals. So you see paper after paper with their names on it asking and answering meaningless questions with shoddy research that is only fit for toilet reading. Academics are the worst kind of prostitution - they give the illusion of respectability but are the most corrupt bastards in the field of medicine. Rare is the academic who has NEVER received some drug company gratuity of some kind. In fact, I will venture to say that there is no such thing as a medical academic who has not (at some point) been involved in commercial interests.
And this says nothing of the increasing medico-legal pressure, the unrealistic expectations of the community, the expectation of free medical care, the increasing power of nurses, the lowering of standards in medical schools, increasing government interference ...
All of you are f*****. Get out of it when you can.
Bureaucracy has now infiltrated every aspect of medicine. Want to give a patient the latest and greatest drug? You have to justify your decision to some faceless bureaucrat on 1800-888-333 (number for PBS authorities - I know it by heart) who can turn down your application if he can't tick all the boxes. How much do you get remunerated for your operation? Just look it up in the Medicare Rebates book. Because of this bureaucratic interference, the little yellow book has fuelled growth in the fields that are most profitable for doctors. Just look around you - how many people want to do gastro and cardiology? And why? It's because these specialties are well remunerated for not very much work. On the other hand, how many people want to be a country GP? Not many. Why? Because you work extremely hard for a pittance.
Don't believe me when I say that bureaucrats have taken over medicine? OK, go to a hospital. Look at the car parks - see where the bureacrats park their cars? Yup, usually in all the plum spots which are reserved for them. Where do the doctors (who do the REAL work) park their cars? Far away! Even a Nobel prize winner (we have a couple in WA) or an Australian of the Year does not score a better car park than the head petty bureacrat of the hospital. Yes, a small example I know, but it shows you how high doctors rate on their list.
Along with this has come the increasing corruption of the specialty by drug companies and other commercial interests. This malevolent influence has totally duped medicine and co-opted it to drive sales of drugs. Take the recent trial comparing PRN Symbicort vs. regular Seretide + PRN Ventolin - this showed that Symbicort was superior at preventing hospital admissions (no change in overall mortality). However, the obvious question was not even reported in the paper - what about steroid side effects from the increased dose of Symbicort? Or cardiac side effects from the increased dose of long acting beta-agonist?
Such skewed trials are distorting the principle of evidence based medicine and bringing up a new generation of doctors who will know nothing about REAL trials. The only trials they get to perform will be drug company sponsored trials.
Oh, and i'll get on my rant of medical academics. These guys only exist to see their name mentioned in journals. So you see paper after paper with their names on it asking and answering meaningless questions with shoddy research that is only fit for toilet reading. Academics are the worst kind of prostitution - they give the illusion of respectability but are the most corrupt bastards in the field of medicine. Rare is the academic who has NEVER received some drug company gratuity of some kind. In fact, I will venture to say that there is no such thing as a medical academic who has not (at some point) been involved in commercial interests.
And this says nothing of the increasing medico-legal pressure, the unrealistic expectations of the community, the expectation of free medical care, the increasing power of nurses, the lowering of standards in medical schools, increasing government interference ...
All of you are f*****. Get out of it when you can.
Friday, February 19, 2010
Porfirio Rubirosa11-09-2009, 02:04 PM
How To Retire - must read. Golfers included
4 Pre-Conditions for Retirement
I retired in year 2000 at age 52. I am now 61, thus I can claim that I got more
experience at retirement than most!
I thought I should share my experience with mariners because I have seen too many
friends and neighbours
who became so bored that they have become a nuisance to their spouse and children and to
others!
A few of them have solved the problem by going back to work.
They were able to do so because they have a skill/expertise that is still in demand.
The rest (and many are my neighbours) live aimlessly or are waiting to die - a very sad
situation, indeed.
You can retire only when you fulfil these 4 pre-conditions:
1.Your children are financially independent (e.g. they got jobs)
2.You have zero liability (all your borrowings are paid up)
3.You have enough savings to support your lifestyle for the rest of your life, AND most
importantly,
4.You know what you would be doing during your retirement.
DO NOT retire till you meet ALL 4 Pre-Conditions. And of course you should not retire if
you enjoy working and are getting paid for it!
The problem cases I know of are those who failed to meet Pre-Condition #4.
When asked, "What would you be doing during your retirement?" Some replied, "I will
travel/cruise and see the World".
They did that, some for 3 months and then ran out of ideas.
The golfers replied, "I can golf every day." Most could not because they are no longer
fit to play well enough to enjoy the game.
Those who could, need to overcome another hurdle - they need to the find the "kakis" to
play with them.
It's the same with mahjong, bridge, badminton, trekking and karaoke - you need "kakis"!
Most could not find others who share their favourite game and playing/singing alone is
no fun.
AND when they do find them, a few of them found that they are NOT welcomed like my
obnoxious neighbour whom everyone avoids..
Thus if you are into group sports or games, you must form your groups BEFORE you retire.
You need to identify your "kakis", play with them and discover whether they "click" with
you.
The less sporty "can read all the books bought over the years".
I know of one guy who fell asleep after a few pages and ended up napping most of the
time!
He discovered that he did not like to read after all. We do change and we may not enjoy
the hobbies we had..
Routine Activities To Fill Your Week
For most people, your routine work activities are planned for you or dictated by others
and circumstances.
When you retire, you wake up to a new routine - one that you yourself have to establish
as nobody else would do it for you!
The routine to establish should keep your body, mind and spirit "sharpened". A good
routine would comprise:
a) One weekly physical sport - you need to keep fit to enjoy your retirement.
If you are the non-sporty type, you should fire your maid and clean your home without
mechanical aids.
Dancing and baby-sitting are good alternatives.
b) One weekly mind stimulating activity - e.g. writing, studying for a degree, acquiring
a new skill, solving problems or puzzles, learn or teach something.
You need to stimulate your mind to stay alive because the day you stop using your brain
is the day you start to die.
c) One weekly social activity - choose one involving lots of friends/neighbours.
Get yourself accepted as a member to at least 3 interests groups.
Unless you prefer to be alone, you do need friends more than ever as you get older and
less fit to pursue your sport.
d) One weekly community service activity - you need to give to appreciate what you have
taken in this life.
It's good to leave some kind of legacy.
With 4 weekly activities, you got 4 days out of 7 covered.
The remaining 3 days should be devoted to family related activities. In this way, you
maintain a balance between amusing yourself and your family members.
Any spare time should remain "spare" so that you can capitalise on opportunities that
come your way like responding to an unexpected request to do a job or to take advantage
of cheap fares to see places or to visit an exhibition.
Mind stimulating activities
Most judges live to a ripe old age. They use their brains a lot to decide on cases. I am
sure MM Lee's brain works overtime.
He's 80+ and still going strong. In "Today" you would have read of 2 inspiring oldies.
One is a granny who learned to play the guitar at age 60 to entertain his grandchildren.
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Porfirio Rubirosa11-09-2009, 02:05 PM
She's 70+ today and those grandchildren have grown to play with her.
Another is an Indian radiologist who on retirement, qualified as an acupuncturist.
He's age 77 and still offers his services (by appointment only) including free ones to
those who have no income.
I guaranteeyou that they are happy people who discovered a "2nd wind" to take them to
the sunset with a smile on their faces.
Mind stimulating activities are hard to identify.
They require your will to do something useful with the rest of your life, a mindset
change and the discipline to carry it through.
Your Bucket List
Despite your busy routine, you will at times be bored. Then it's time to turn to your
Bucket List.
Your bucket list contains a list of things to do before you kick the bucket. They are
not routine and are usually one off activities.
You need them to have something to look forward to.
These include anniversaries, trips (and pilgrimages), visits to friends and relations
abroad, re-doing your home, tending conferences (related to your hobbies), acquiring a
new set of expertise. 4 such activities that are spaced our quarterly would be ideal.
Retirement Is A Serious Business
If you can afford to retire and want to, do prepare to live to your fullest.
You need to be fit to enjoy it - therefore get into shape now.
You do not want to get up on a Monday and wonder what to do each week, therefore
identify your set of weekly routine activities now and try them out to confirm that they
are the activities that you will be looking forward to doing each week, week after week.
You bucket list of "rewards" or "projects" or"challenges" is needed to help you break
away from the routine thereby make live worth living.
Start listing what you fancy and refine it as you chug along in your retirement.
You will have so much fun, you would wish you were retired since your turned 21!
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Jabba11-09-2009, 02:51 PM
The retirees i frequently met are happily shouting "Picture!" on leisure world...and they dun seem to be short of kakis...
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SamuelStalin12-09-2009, 01:19 AM
Oh Portfolio Robinrose I LOVE GOLF!!!! ;);););););)
And for watching I smile when the greats strut the greens with their caddies while the multitudes of losers and journeymen just watch and follow from behind the approved lines.
Anyway I'm glad I'm not born too early. Those fuddie duddies, of course old people should be somewhat respected, but I'm also glad I'm not them living their kind of life. They are older and old, they feel unwanted by society, and, they seem to be quite clueless about how to live their lives upon getting older and retiring ie they don't really know what to do afterwards. Mid-life crisis. Really sad.
To be born later, the better.
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scroobal12-09-2009, 01:40 AM
Assuming you are financially secure, keep to this routine and you will be fine. Get in touch with old school mates (your age group), long lost friends and acquaintences etc. You are bound to find some that are in retirement as well.
Just pick a nice kopi tiam and meet on a regular basis. Get at least 4 kakis or more to cover absences by individuals attending family commitments, medical and other errands.
Don't plan too much, just start talking about politics, the Chua sisters, Chee, Old man, 9/11 etc. Cover local RC members who strut around like peacoks. etc.
When you work, you plan, you organise, you think ahead. In retirement, just get up, do the morning constitution and head to meet the khakis. Shoot the breeze. Every now and then, some will have bright ideas such as attending Photography courses, fishing, going to musuem and trying out Pure Blonde beer at the cafe, Lor 1, geylang for Briyani, Redhill for chicken rice.
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lifeafter4112-09-2009, 02:18 AM
Health, more than anything else is the most important.
Great piece of advice. Thanks!!!
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kingrant12-09-2009, 03:02 AM
All pretty good tips! Tks for the threads.
Agree with Porto mostly. However, finding something mentally challenging to do on a regular basis is not so easy. Even tuition or teaching - it gets boring after a while, esp. when the subject matter is kacang. Some people do sudoku, or play online word games.
Maybe can also extend that tip by scroobal - instead of just coffeeshop talk, which can degenerate to just empty gossip, I guess one can start some chess games with the kakis. Even with giant chess pieces on giant chessboards. That way, the rest can watch with ease. Of course, it is not de rigeur. Do as you please, at yr own time own target...
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Porfirio Rubirosa14-09-2009, 06:29 AM
just a quick add on...
nothing beats building strong long term meaningful relationships...better still to be loved and to have loved back...:)
All pretty good tips! Tks for the threads.
Agree with Porto mostly. However, finding something mentally challenging to do on a regular basis is not so easy. Even tuition or teaching - it gets boring after a while, esp. when the subject matter is kacang. Some people do sudoku, or play online word games.
Maybe can also extend that tip by scroobal - instead of just coffeeshop talk, which can degenerate to just empty gossip, I guess one can start some chess games with the kakis. Even with giant chess pieces on giant chessboards. That way, the rest can watch with ease. Of course, it is not de rigeur. Do as you please, at yr own time own target...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SamuelStalin14-09-2009, 07:27 AM
just a quick add on...
nothing beats building strong long term meaningful relationships...better still to be loved and to have loved back...:)
Oh yes I do have a strong long term meaningful relationship with my gramophone. Dad left it for me and we are together to this day. And whenever I need a tune from the old, peaceful days it never lets me down. You don't know how lovingly I clean it fortnightly as well.
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LonewolfAlfa14-09-2009, 09:09 AM
just beware. when getting in touch with long lost friends and making new acquaintences, u will definitely come across a few whom will ask u for a loan.
u are better off avoiding them.
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SamuelStalin14-09-2009, 11:43 AM
just beware. when getting in touch with long lost friends and making new acquaintences, u will definitely come across a few whom will ask u for a loan.
u are better off avoiding them.
Quite true actually. Most people are fucks most of the time.
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1sickpuppy II14-09-2009, 02:41 PM
Well I think I can retire in 4 years time then.
1. Both my housing loans are fully paid
2. All my children are working overseas and I don't think any of them will be coming back.
3. Will be getting my pension + rental from 1 of my houses and my savings.
4. Continus with my hobby of plastic modeling, gardening and taking care of my 2 dogs.
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scroobal14-09-2009, 11:16 PM
What you need to do immediately is to start networking to assemble a core group of likeminded people. Best of old schoolmates and ex-colleagues of your age group. Also need to create 2 groups (one with wife and one with the boys)
Don't do it when you retire or about to retire. The links tend to evaporate rapidly.
Enjoy.
Well I think I can retire in 4 years time then.
1. Both my housing loans are fully paid
2. All my children are working overseas and I don't think any of them will be coming back.
3. Will be getting my pension + rental from 1 of my houses and my savings.
4. Continus with my hobby of plastic modeling, gardening and taking care of my 2 dogs.
Sunday, January 10, 2010
23 March 2009
Mr Mah Bow Tan
Minister for National Development
HDB Hub
480 Lorong 6
Toa Payoh
Singapore 310480
Dear Mr Mah
Re: Request to Restrict Access of Sky Bridges of tttttttttt to Residents
We are future residents of yyyyyyyyy. We are delighted and impressed with the efficiency and professionalism that HDB has demonstrated in the landmark development.
There are about 1800 apartments that would house about 7200 residents (for an average family of four) in a small area. This is the first time HDB has experimented with such high-density development, the (severe) constraints of which we would never fully appreciate until the residents have lived together for many years. Thus we bought into the development with peace of mind that HDB would manage these constraints judiciously when it announced in the press that the sky bridges would be opened only to residents (see ST article dated 23 Nov 08 below).
Recently, some residents have called up HDB only to find out that HDB is planning to open the skybridges on the rooftop (Level 50) to the public. As much as we would like to share the scenic view from these vantage points with the public, we question the wisdom of doing so.
To allow an unlimited number more people to congregate on the rooftop of a tall building is an unthinkable and frightening scenario from a safety and security perspective. Especially when strategic resources such as water tanks are located at these places and when Singapore is prone to lightning strike. This is not to mention the logistical nightmare of supporting tens of thousands of people and vehicles descending into a small strip of land on festive occasions. In an emergency, no evacuation plan would be effective in such a situation. A disastrous loss of lives and damage to property could well be the consequence.
In addition, residents were reminded that they would have to pay service and conservancy charges that are much higher than normal rates to upkeep the sky bridges. Allowing public access to the sky bridges immediately removes this justification.
As future residents of this much talked about housing project, we call on HDB for some understanding that we are paying a premium price for our apartments due to the view and it would also be very unjustified, if not unfair to allow the public access to the roof garden. Although HDB may have its own "security measures" or certain timings of access, it would seem that the residents would not be able to enjoy their facilities (which they are paying for, of course) in peace.
On another note, ppppppppp is locating near office buildings and nightspots, thus it is unfair to expose our facilities to lunch-hour crowds or nightlife crowds. Furthermore, in events such as Formula 1, National Day, New Year's Eve and so on, it would be very unjust if residents have to face overcrowding on their own property, not forgetting littering and noise pollution.
As payers for additional facilities, we would take it to ourselves to upkeep the area and maintain cleanliness. Can we expect the same from the public? What is the distinction from P@D than a normal HDB if the public were allowed to access it?
In addition we also wish to highlight the other side of the equation - the public. If the public were able to access the roof garden during certain hours, what would stop them from writing in and complaining why they are allowed to access it normally but not during peak periods as mentioned above? This situation is of course if HDB were to put a stop to the public access during peak periods so as not to disturb the residents. Once a privilege is given, it is very difficult to take it away or to put restrictions to it.
We therefore appeal to HDB to honour its initial commitment to restrict access to the sky bridges to residents. We believe that this is the responsible thing to do where safety and security of the residents and the public is concerned. This would also demonstrate that HDB is a trusted partner to work with. Let us do all we can not to compromise the success of pppppppppppp, so that it can be a showcase for premium, high-density development to Singapore and possibly to the whole world for years to come.
We attach the article dated Nov 23 2008 from The Straits time which indicated that only residents would have access for your referral (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/news/2008/11/1770/top-of-the-world).
We look forward to your favourable reply soon. Thank you.
CC
Ms Indranee Rajah
Member of Parliament, Tanjong Pagar GRC
Assoc Prof Koo Tsai Kee
Member of Parliament, Tanjong Pagar GRC
Minister Mentor Mr Lee Kwan Yew
Member of Parliament, Tanjong Pagar GRC
Mr Baey Yam Keng
Member of Parliament, Tanjong Pagar GRC
Radm Lui Tuck Yew
Member of Parliament, Tanjong Pagar GRC
Mr Tan Chin Siong.
Member of Parliament, Tanjong Pagar GRC
Regards,
Future Residents of uuuuuuuuuuuu
1. Name
Block Number
Unit
2. Name
Block Number
Unit
Monday, August 17, 2009
Saturday, August 15, 2009
The Pinnacle @ Duxton was originally scheduled to be completed in June 2009. Due to some technical issues, the progress was slightly delayed. The first batch of residents may be able to get their keys in Dec 2009. The Chairman of Tg Pagar RC pointed out that many people are very concern about the completion date of P@D. But the works to link the sky bridges are complex, and engineers have to make some correction along the way. He said that if everything went smoothly, the first resident may be able to move in by end of the year. The Chairman said he hopes that when Singapore celebrates its 45th birthday, they can welcome the 7000 P@D residents at the same time. This can also bring more business to the neighborhood shops. About 95% of units at P@D has been booked. The 7 blocks are linked by sky bridges. It is a landmark building in Singapore. It is projected to be completed in the 4th quarter of this year.
Wednesday, August 12, 2009
China Construction Bank, the number two lender, is cutting loans by 70pc over the second half of the year. "We noticed that some loans didn't go into the real economy. Housing prices are rising too fast," said the bank's president, Zhang Jianguo. Andy Xie, a leading consultant, said China's boom was a "giant Ponzi scheme" that was likely to "bring very bad consequences" for the country. "The stock market is in a final frenzy again. The most ignorant retail investors are being sucked in by rising momentum," he said. Equities are overvalued by 50pc to 100pc. Mr Xie, who wrote his doctoral thesis on Japan's bubble in the 1980s, said China's ratio of property prices to incomes is seven times higher than in the US. It costs three months' salary per square meter of space – arguably the highest in the world – though tower blocks are sitting empty. Prices are being propped up by state enterprises, abetted by local Communist bosses. Mr Xie said Chinese booms and busts follow a political rythm. There is a deeply-rooted belief that the authorities can keep the game going – the "Panda put", China's answer to the "Greenspan Put" – and that the Communist Party will not let the rally fizzle before the 60th anniversary of the revolution on October 1. This belief is self-fulfilling, for a while. Mr Xie expects China's rally to falter around October, followed by fresh shots of liquidity before the economy falls into a deeper slump by 2012. "Property prices could drop like Japan's in the last two decades, which would destroy the banking system," he said. Mr Xie said China's asset boom is the flip-side of the weak US dollar. US monetary stimulus is in effect leaking across the Pacific. Bust will follow when the dollar rallies, draining liquidity again. If the Fed tightens abruptly as it did under Paul Volcker in the early 1980s, the denouement could be painful for China. Beijing deserves praise for trying to switch reliance from exports towards the domestic economy. It has had some success. Retail sales have risen 15pc over the last year. But Professor Michael Pettis from Beijing University said it is proving very hard to induce the Chinese to alter their spending habits. The cultural barriers will take years to overcome. Instead, the stimulus is feeding more industrial investment, leading to more excess capacity worldwide. While Chinese GDP continues to grow near 8pc, this is based on output. In the West, GDP growth is based on spending. These two definitions are chalk and cheese. The underlying story has not changed. The East-West imbalances that lay behind the Great Recession of 2008-2009 are getting worse, not better
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About Me
- hunterJet
- Crew member of 141 squadron at Tengah Airbase 1973~1975. Frequent Mcgregor club for billiard and Fish & Chip.